Overloaded houseboat burying human waste in the sand
- Thread starter Pegasus
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Goblin
Well-Known Member
Thanks for being the adult in the room. Ryan and I couldn't pull it off but you did.
Thanks,
Goblin
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Never mind. And sorry I don't have a cute movie quote, or a story that I think is funny to convey to you.Since we are stating points again, mine is still that it was ad hominen and derisive and did not impeach anything said.
But I do understand your point completely.
You are complaining, while doing nothing, about people complaining, while doing nothing. Got it.
Welcome to the party pal, (apologies to John McClane)
Goblin
Waterbaby
Escalante-Class Member
Yes it bothers me and is why we ALWAYS carried one of the old Coleman screw on lid water jugs and collected all our dog poop as well as other dogs poop and then brought it back home in the jug and disposed of it here.. We never left dog poop on the beaches and I support dogs at Powell, but if you are not willing to police your beach and clean up after them then leave the dogs home.
And was Dale a figure of speech or were you referring to me? I have already contacted my
Congressman, Paul Gosar. Our district no longer covers Page, but he formerly represented the district that did! No Thanks, to Nappy's illegal, Democrat "independent" democrat party operative run re districting,,
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birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Picking up your dogs crap is definitely going the extra distance and I have been negligent in the past but never thought about it. I will now! Waterbaby, I hope you haven't had to pick up any of my dog leavins but If you have, I promise never again. See this forum works!
birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
I rarely get called an adult and I'm not sure I like the sounds of it. More like a 65 year old juvenile.
drcalderwood
Active Member
I've met Paul Gosar and person and had some good talks with him. He's a great man and one that will definitely stand up for his constituents.
birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Time will tell. A broom and a rug is more likely. I am going to watch these people like a hawk. Pegasus sticks his neck out for the good of all of us and the lake and for that he/we deserve follow up, not cynicism. Let's try to keep the enforcement/ investigative authorities feet to the fire on this one. Call anyone you can think of to keep this important issue from becoming another ghost. Non-emergency dispatch NPS 928-608-6301. NPS must have an information officer.
Gem Morris
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Here's the answer from Mary Plumb, Public Affairs Director of the GCNRA:
Hi Mr. Morris, I checked into the answers to your questions, and was informed that the investigation is active, and we are 100% committed to building a solid case and seeing it through to its logical conclusion.
The investigation is still ongoing, so we won't be able to provide more information about the perpetrator and the fines or cost of cleanup for this specific case.
We can provide the following general information about possible charges and collateral fines for this type of violation:
Polluting a water source 36 CFR 2.14 (a)(6) $250
Disposal of human body waste in undeveloped area 36 CFR 2.14 (a)(9) $250
Portable Toilet Required within 1/4 mile of shoreline 36 CFR 2.14 (b) $250
Creating a Hazardous or offensive condition 36 CFR 2.34(a)(4) $300
These are all 36 Code of Federal Regulation laws that can apply. However there are likely other local state and federal laws that could apply.
Furthermore restitution could also be sought for the clean-up and rehabilitation of the area.
Thanks again for your interest, it is very much appreciated!
Regards,
Mary
Hi Mr. Morris, I checked into the answers to your questions, and was informed that the investigation is active, and we are 100% committed to building a solid case and seeing it through to its logical conclusion.
The investigation is still ongoing, so we won't be able to provide more information about the perpetrator and the fines or cost of cleanup for this specific case.
We can provide the following general information about possible charges and collateral fines for this type of violation:
Polluting a water source 36 CFR 2.14 (a)(6) $250
Disposal of human body waste in undeveloped area 36 CFR 2.14 (a)(9) $250
Portable Toilet Required within 1/4 mile of shoreline 36 CFR 2.14 (b) $250
Creating a Hazardous or offensive condition 36 CFR 2.34(a)(4) $300
These are all 36 Code of Federal Regulation laws that can apply. However there are likely other local state and federal laws that could apply.
Furthermore restitution could also be sought for the clean-up and rehabilitation of the area.
Thanks again for your interest, it is very much appreciated!
Regards,
Mary
birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Wow Gem, good job. My calls pale.
Thanks, Gem. You have the contact, keep in touch with her. No matter how good her response sounds, she is a government bureaucrat, and actually doing their job is something most of them avoid like the plague.
drcalderwood
Active Member
I heard some info, third hand, about the people on this houseboat. I know someone who knows them personally. They were notified by the park authorities that they had two options. Either pay a $20,000 clean up fee, or come down and clean it all up themselves (under ranger supervision). They elected to come back down and clean it all up themselves. I can guarantee you that in the future that family will be taking the houseboat over to the pump out station when they fill up their tanks.
Goblin
Well-Known Member
That pretty much falls under the category of 'restitution' and would seem to be acceptable if performed satisfactorily.
There would and should still be legal liability that would incur fines regardless of the restitution. This would apply to all offenders and not just the MFWIC.
Hopefully these offenders will not get a pass on the legal issues involved otherwise there would be no real penalty or consequence for the offense. No time for the crime, so to speak. Well, unless having to dispose of the hazardous mess you yourself created is considered a penalty. Which it is not. It is, at best, just restitution.
Imagine only making a criminal return the money from the bank job and saying, "Thanks, we're good! Just remember if ya get caught again you might have to return the money then too."
Fines, restitution and names on the public record with maybe a photo news story covering the offenders cleanup efforts. No wussy blurring of faces either. They could even wear prison jumpsuits or Sheriff Joe pink coveralls in the news story for added effect.
Now that's deterrence
FWIW,
Goblin
Cleaning up the mess is to be expected, but also expected is additional restitution and fines or short term incarceration for their crime. If these guys spend the weekend in jail I would expect their pooping behavior will change. This party has clearly shown they do not deserve to have access to Powell, and with the extreme level of disrespect and health impact to others, this entire party should also see much greater consequences then simply un-doing the action, a lifetime restriction for all adults from entering Powell should be considered. A message needs to be sent and if all they are required to do is bag their poop (after getting caught) there is zero fear for others to copy this behavior, lose your ability to access the park is like hunting without a license and getting caught, very severe penalties including loss of equipment.
If Powell has seen any rain then the poop has already leached into the ground, does this mean they will be excavation and processing all contaminated sand off site by barge. There is a nice big waterfall right above this poop field and the first heavy rain will drown that entire area with water that will flow into Powell. Kanab closed streets yesterday due to flooding, did this storm hit Powell.
If what D.C said is true, I am glad the party has been caught and have admitted to committing the crime. If they have accepted responsibility and they are no longer alleged guilty their names need to be made public.
I hope this does end up with severe citations and mandatory court appearance. This entire event disgusts me. What a bunch of absolute disrespectful jerks. Cleaning up the mess, $250 per pile fine and a weekend in jail would be a good start. Lifetime ban to Powell would provide public comfort that this party won't be able to do it again.
If Powell has seen any rain then the poop has already leached into the ground, does this mean they will be excavation and processing all contaminated sand off site by barge. There is a nice big waterfall right above this poop field and the first heavy rain will drown that entire area with water that will flow into Powell. Kanab closed streets yesterday due to flooding, did this storm hit Powell.
If what D.C said is true, I am glad the party has been caught and have admitted to committing the crime. If they have accepted responsibility and they are no longer alleged guilty their names need to be made public.
I hope this does end up with severe citations and mandatory court appearance. This entire event disgusts me. What a bunch of absolute disrespectful jerks. Cleaning up the mess, $250 per pile fine and a weekend in jail would be a good start. Lifetime ban to Powell would provide public comfort that this party won't be able to do it again.
Fish Finder
Active Member
I think many of us have felt personally offended by this act of desecration to our beautiful lake, I certainly have. It is gratifying to know that this is being followed through and not "let go".
I am dismayed at how many people, at pretty much all of our lakes, streams, campgrounds,etc. simply treat them like a landfill. Is it a lack of enforcement or awareness, arrogance, or plain stupid? I have never been able to understand this behavior.
I find it hard to believe that they were not aware of the regulations and thought this was acceptable behavior, but who can know that for sure.
When it comes to the punishment, a fine of this magnitude would be devastating for most. They made an enormous error in judgement and should indeed be responsible for cleaning it up or paying to have it done. I am grateful to have been taught that when you make a mistake, you should 1st accept responsibility, 2nd do everything you can to make it right, and 3rd learn from your error. I feel that having them be willing to clean it up is a better outcome. After all that is quite a walk of shame. In general it seems some may consider a fine to be the cost of doing what they want, [if they are caught], although $20k would certainly get the attention of most.
I agree with Goblin that it ought to be reported on widely. Prime time news, radio, newspapers. Maybe that would actually help discourage others who feel they have the right to disrespect our treasures. However I would personally be okay with letting them have there faces blurred, the point is to inform and prevent, and they will likely be plenty em-barr-assed by the whole ordeal. [ Sorry couldn't pass that one up.]
I am dismayed at how many people, at pretty much all of our lakes, streams, campgrounds,etc. simply treat them like a landfill. Is it a lack of enforcement or awareness, arrogance, or plain stupid? I have never been able to understand this behavior.
I find it hard to believe that they were not aware of the regulations and thought this was acceptable behavior, but who can know that for sure.
When it comes to the punishment, a fine of this magnitude would be devastating for most. They made an enormous error in judgement and should indeed be responsible for cleaning it up or paying to have it done. I am grateful to have been taught that when you make a mistake, you should 1st accept responsibility, 2nd do everything you can to make it right, and 3rd learn from your error. I feel that having them be willing to clean it up is a better outcome. After all that is quite a walk of shame. In general it seems some may consider a fine to be the cost of doing what they want, [if they are caught], although $20k would certainly get the attention of most.
I agree with Goblin that it ought to be reported on widely. Prime time news, radio, newspapers. Maybe that would actually help discourage others who feel they have the right to disrespect our treasures. However I would personally be okay with letting them have there faces blurred, the point is to inform and prevent, and they will likely be plenty em-barr-assed by the whole ordeal. [ Sorry couldn't pass that one up.]
birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
If the whole crew coulld be froced back to clean up the waste(fat chance) I would think that it would create a ton of inconvenience and expense if indeed this party is from Idaho. This is probably going to be a big deal for this group and I wonder how much punishment would be enough. Once the word is out they are going to get a lot of crap from their friends.Sorry. I am a strong advocate for keeping the lake clean and believe in punishment, but how much? To me the fact that the beach is getting cleaned up is primary and the punishment is secondary. I am thankful Pegasus did something about the situation or we wouldn't even know it happened until someone got sick.
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