Drilling rock below high water line?

[Jimbo]

One thing we still do is possess, pick up, grab, brush off, kiss and hug petrified wood. Is that legal below the high water mark?
Seems like we decided sometime back that as long as it was not for commercial use it was ok.
We even retain it!
Just being sarcastic though.

 

[Ryan]

We just got back from the lake. We were up the San Juan, and had an NPS boat pass a houseboat that was anchored to shore with 6 stakes. We did not see the Ranger approach the boat, and that boat remained anchored that way for two more days before they moved on.

I hope they begin enforcing this rule (if it is truly an enforceable rule, which seems under debate), but from my encounter, I don't think it is a focus item for NPS currently.

 

[birdsnest]

Common sense seems to tell me that it is messed up to drill/stake. I do not need an official statement to know it is bad to be drilling. As far as those people who will not come to Powell unless they can drill I say good riddance. I realize that some folks need a directive to help them know what's wrong and for that reason the law needs to be clear but there will always be selfish ones that will continue to deface and for them there must be penalties.

 

[cfulton]

If it's important to the NPS that this policy be followed, they should make a Supervisor to Management contact with Antelope, ARA who would be expected to notify all houseboat owners plus have a handout to everyone entering through the gates. That would increase the knowledge base exponentially instead of trying to train each owner by law enforcement, one fine at a time. Chuck

 

[birdsnest]

If it's important to the NPS that this policy be followed, they should make a Supervisor to Management contact with Antelope, ARA who would be expected to notify all houseboat owners plus have a handout to everyone entering through the gates. That would increase the knowledge base exponentially instead of trying to train each owner by law enforcement, one fine at a time. Chuck

Absolutely. Education would be much more effective than enforcement. But a good stiff fine once in a while for blatant offenders wouldn't hurt'

 

[Sedona]

Common sense to the Drainers is that it's "messed up" and selfish to flood a majestic canyon. The canyon is far from it's "natural state" below the high water line. And unless you are traversing the lake in a canoe, every motorboat is creating wakes that are sloshing and pounding against canyon walls with a significant erosive effect (some more than others). We're talking crumbly sandstone, not granite. Heck, why not turn it into a National Park and ban private vehicles altogether as they do in some parks? Wouldn't that be a good first step to preserve the canyon?
But if we can't do that maybe we can do some of these other great ideas that are already in effect in many National Parks.

1. No more dogs, period. Too much dog poop laying around. Ban them.
2. No radios or music. Headphones only. Disturbs my peace and quiet.
3. No more gas powered boats. They create wakes that erode the canyon walls. There is also gas spillage and exhaust byproducts that end up in the water.
4. No digging anchor holes. Too many left unfilled. Trip hazard.
5. No more campfires. Blackens the rock.
6. No more fishing. Must prevent accidentally catching and injuring the few remaining native fish.
7. Close all access to Rainbow Bridge. The Navajo consider it sacred and in general don't want us there. Or at least until they can set up a fee based permit system.
8. Create a permit system that limits visitors to 100 per day to reduce the environmental impact and not disturb the wildlife.
9. Install a giant screen at the east end of the San Juan to filter out the tons of trash that flow down into the lake off the rez each year.
10. No plastics on the lake of any kind. Most plastics contain phthalates (suspected carcinogens) that leach out over time. Leaves your tubes, noodles, floaties, plastic kayaks, etc. at home!

Once we implement all of the above and stop the selfish acts we can then work on the ultimate goal of draining the lake to get the canyon back to it's true natural state.

Sorry, couldn't help myself but I'm amused when people think their "level of use and enjoyment" is the right one and everybody else is a reckless clod. Disclaimer, I've only been on a staked boat once in 30 years of coming to the lake.

 

[Ryan]

I don't know how much damage over time drilling/using stakes would cause to the geography of the lake. My gut feeling is that, at least in my mind, it would not be highly significant.

I can however, vividly imagine the amount of damage that an orphaned stake could do to a boat (or foot for that matter), when the tip of it is somewhere between 4" - 36" below water, and unseen. That would be highly significant.

That is reason enough for me to support the ban.

 

[Buffalo]

I don't know how much damage over time drilling/using stakes would cause to the geography of the lake. My gut feeling is that, at least in my mind, it would not be highly significant.

I can however, vividly imagine the amount of damage that an orphaned stake could do to a boat (or foot for that matter), when the tip of it is somewhere between 4" - 36" below water, and unseen. That would be highly significant.

That is reason enough for me to support the ban.

Ryan, Your argument is like saying automobiles that disregard the speed limit are dangerous so let's ban all automobiles.

Yes abandoned stakes can be a boaters/swimmers nightmare! I frequent the north end of the lake and in 25 years I've encountered less than 5 abandoned stakes. All of which I removed or cut flush with the sandstone.

Let's not "throw the baby out with the bath water" ;-)

 

[Sedona]

Ryan, Your argument is like saying automobiles that disregard the speed limit are dangerous so let's ban all automobiles.

Yes abandoned stakes can be a boaters/swimmers nightmare! I frequent the north end of the lake and in 25 years I've encountered less than 5 abandoned stakes. All of which I removed or cut flush with the sandstone.

Let's not "throw the baby out with the bath water" ;-)

In my 30 years I've only seen one and it was cut flush at the sandstone. Nice work Buffalo. But I wouldn't be surprised if the Trash Trackers have come across more. Any Trash Trackers want to comment?

 

[Tiff Mapel]

Trash Tracker chiming in here... Yes, we find the stakes all the time. This summer we found DOZENS. We either pull them out or cut them flush at the sandstone. Kane Wash and Kane Creek off of Padre Bay seem to the worst offenders. (Hint, hint, rangers). You would not believe all the toilet paper and buried piles we see too, but that's another can of worms.

 

[Sedona]

Thanks Tiff, good to know! I've avoided staying anyplace within 15 or so miles of Wahweap or Bullfrog so I guess they must be far more prevalent in those locations.

 

[Cookie]

NPS doesn't even police the Jet ski rule, why would they go after stake enforcement. For the most part, they don't want to talk to us unless they are forced to on the lake. The only way to stop the use of stakes at the lake is by reducing the amount of houseboats on the lake, fact is nobody used stakes 10 years ago because there were plenty of beaches unused.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan, Your argument is like saying automobiles that disregard the speed limit are dangerous so let's ban all automobiles.

Yes abandoned stakes can be a boaters/swimmers nightmare! I frequent the north end of the lake and in 25 years I've encountered less than 5 abandoned stakes. All of which I removed or cut flush with the sandstone.

Let's not "throw the baby out with the bath water" ;-)

Hmm. I think there is a HUGE difference between what I said, and your comment regarding banning automobiles. But you are free to think as you like.

Let's try this argument. I've been going to Powell since 1978. For the last 10 years, that has included probably 30 trips? Maybe more.

We anchor by tying ropes around large boulders. Using this method, not once have we lost our mooring. No damage to any of the environment. And there are plenty of boulders to find to secure your houseboat, so you are not limited to the perfect sandy beach.

There is no need to drill into the rocks.

You have seen less than 5 abandoned stakes? I have seen many more than that, and I am talking about the north end where stakes are less frequent than in the South. I do think they are a problem. I've tried to remove the ones we have found without success, and we don't take equipment necessary to remove those stakes we have found (honestly I am not sure what that would even be, a grinder?) And even if you did, I would need someone to explain to me how you get them cut so they are below the ground, and not cause a hazard for boats and bare feet. Maybe it can be done. It doesn't need to be done with traditional anchoring.

We certainly are on different sides of this issue, and I am with those that are not fully convinced on what the real regulations are, and am even less convinced that if stakes are illegal that there would be any consistent enforcement of said regulation.

So, those that believe the practice is legal and needed will likely continue to use that method.

 

[Sedona]

Leaving behind stakes is in-excusable but a pipe wrench with a 4 or 5 foot breaker bar pipe handle should easily twist out just about anything. No need to cut.
Are there any reports of injuries or hull damage due to rebar or stakes ever occurring at the lake?

 

[Buffalo]

Leaving behind stakes is in-excusable but a pipe wrench with a 4 or 5 foot breaker bar pipe handle should easily twist out just about anything. No need to cut.
Are there any reports of injuries or hull damage due to rebar or stakes ever occurring at the lake?

My closest call was in my runabout. I pulled into a beach and looked down into the water and there was a six inch rod sticking out of the sand in about 18" of water. I waded in to see if it could be removed and it turned out to be a houseboat size danforth anchor laying on it's side! Completely buried except for that steel rod. I was lucky I did not hit it, but I did end up with a free anchor.

 

[birdsnest]

Leaving behind stakes is in-excusable but a pipe wrench with a 4 or 5 foot breaker bar pipe handle should easily twist out just about anything. No need to cut.
Are there any reports of injuries or hull damage due to rebar or stakes ever occurring at the lake?

That method is more likely to leave a short/sharp piece of metal exposed causing a more dangerous situation than a long bar. You can not control where a piece of metal will start to fatigue and twist with a pipe wrench due to all the variables. Yes, it may twist out, but it may not, depending on how deep it was driven and you could easily end up with a corkscrew shaped piece of metal sticking out of the rock. In my humble opinion the rod would have to be cut even with the rock(very hard to do if under water) or some type of rotary or hammer device would have to be used to dig the bar out. I was a plumber for over 30 years and have had to fight this problem many times. It's kind of like throwing dice, sometimes you're lucky sometimes your not and in this case, if you're not lucky you've created a more dangerous situation.

 

[Goblin]

Here is a scary 'close call' at a downstream lake.

It was at Havasu many years ago. A close friend was going to water ski. He liked to start by walking into the lake so he could stand as the boat would accelerate away.

He started and skied for awhile and then was let go very near where he started. He walked out now wearing what appeared to be a skirt instead of the cutoffs he started with. He said he felt something go between his legs just as he got up on two skis. We investigated and found a metal fence stake seated in a coffee can of concrete (makeshift anchor from an old fence post I guess). It was positioned vertically and the top was only a few inches below the surface.

If my friend had been an inch lower Larry would have become Larissa. Anyway, 'Still Larry' became weak in the knees and had to sit down for awhile.

Goblin

 

[Endurance]

That method is more likely to leave a short/sharp piece of metal exposed causing a more dangerous situation than a long bar. You can not control where a piece of metal will start to fatigue and twist with a pipe wrench due to all the variables. Yes, it may twist out, but it may not, depending on how deep it was driven and you could easily end up with a corkscrew shaped piece of metal sticking out of the rock. In my humble opinion the rod would have to be cut even with the rock(very hard to do if under water) or some type of rotary or hammer device would have to be used to dig the bar out. I was a plumber for over 30 years and have had to fight this problem many times. It's kind of like throwing dice, sometimes you're lucky sometimes your not and in this case, if you're not lucky you've created a more dangerous situation.

Well said. That is the kind of knowledge that comes from 30 years' experience. It sounds like it also matches Tiff's experience on the Trash Tracker. If any boat on the water is equipped to clean up what boaters leave behind, it would be the Trash Tracker. If even they have to saw some pins off once in a while, it tells me that the kind of boater who has a skill set that would lead them to resort to drilling in the first place would be ill-equipped to deal with a stuck pin.

 

[Waterbaby]

Here is a scary 'close call' at a downstream lake.

It was at Havasu many years ago. A close friend was going to water ski. He liked to start by walking into the lake so he could stand as the boat would accelerate away.

He started and skied for awhile and then was let go very near where he started. He walked out now wearing what appeared to be a skirt instead of the cutoffs he started with. He said he felt something go between his legs just as he got up on two skis. We investigated and found a metal fence stake seated in a coffee can of concrete (makeshift anchor from an old fence post I guess). It was positioned vertically and the top was only a few inches below the surface.

If my friend had been an inch lower Larry would have become Larissa. Anyway, 'Still Larry' became weak in the knees and had to sit down for awhile.

Goblin

There is something in one of the coves just the town side of Pilot Rock you can see just under the surface at certain water levels and barely see when the lake is up at Spring levels... it is in the center and very dangerous, but impossible to pull up [yes cement and some sort of rods are involved]. We tried pulling up once, not moveable, notified BLM but they never did anything about it. There's dumb people on every lake - doesn't make it right, though. Excusing drilling into the sandstone totally ignores how fragile sandstone is and how creating cracks allows moisture to penetrate deeper and then freeze in the winter leading to major cracks and spalls. It is not a little ho-hum thing at all. It has nothing to do with "leave no footprints"... and if anyone has ever stepped on one or run a fiberglass boat over one just under the surface it is more than an irritant.

 

[Raven Haven]

Trash Tracker chiming in here... Yes, we find the stakes all the time. This summer we found DOZENS. We either pull them out or cut them flush at the sandstone. Kane Wash and Kane Creek off of Padre Bay seem to the worst offenders. (Hint, hint, rangers). You would not believe all the toilet paper and buried piles we see too, but that's another can of worms.

I too am a Trash Tracker (occasionally with Tiff- hi Tiff). Over the last 15 years of Tracking, I have personally pulled out between 20-30 rebar stakes from sandstone. Usually I sledgehammer them loose before I can muscle them out. Sometimes that doesn't work and we have to Sawzall them off as flush to the sandstone as possible. It bothers me that people purposely leave the stakes in the sand because they are too difficult to get out. This year, I saw several near the mouth of West Canyon. I also saw several houseboats stake-anchored in Neanderthal and West. Hopefully, they removed the stakes before departure. If not, we will do it for them next summer.
Trash Tracker Eric

BTW, TT Dave is heading to the San Juan today, so if anybody is up that way, pull up and say hi!