Drilling rock below high water line?

[scubatim]

Nice - always post u're dumbest/illegal/ obvious videos on YouTube!!! Best I can make out it is "Twilight Barge" or Bilge - or close - let's get the NPS on this - no need to verify location!!!!A ____ H___S !!!

 

[eddy.price]

I also use cams. They work great and are easy to use in Powell. The video Endurance posted is a good tutorial. Cams are very helpful in securing lines to cracks ranging from about 1" to 5" in width. Lots of options to use them in Powell. Last month I even placed one below the water surface to secure the stern of the boat at a camp.

Brent - thanks for asking your son at DR to get info on drilling holes from rangers. Please let us know the outcome!

 

[Endurance]

Federal code covering national parks, 36 CFR Part 1 § 2.1, prohibits "destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing [a] mineral resource." I don't know all the codes that the rangers have been using to issue tickets, but I do know that for purposes of this law, they call sandstone a "mineral resource" and that they call drilling a permanent hole "destroying, injuring [or] defacing."

Buffalo asks a reasonable question about climbing bolts. NPS takes the position that they're legal for climbing, but not for anything else. That seems to match perfectly with the language cited from the NRA Superintendent's Compendium talking about "pitons, chocks, bolts and all other climbing aids" that are "used in connection with climbing activities." It is clear that if you use a climbing bolt to anchor a boat, it is no longer a "climbing aid" and is not used "in connection with climbing activities."

It is easy for one of us to think we're doing little harm in drilling a couple of holes to anchor a houseboat. The rangers tend to look it at it from the perspective of a park that gets literally millions of visitors every year. If those millions of visitors are drilling millions of holes, it is equally easy to see how we boaters could create a honeycomb in our rocks and trash the red rock natural resource we all love at Powell.

 

[Jackalope]

When checking, I was told that drilling below the high water level is OK, on more than one occasion. Even Wayne has weighed in on this subject in the past.
I put out my anchors along with most, but have seen bunches of holes so that is why the question came up. It was explained that just by parking your houseboat at the shore and creating a divot would be the same issue as drilling, or pounding a heavy anchor behind some rocks ... food for thought.

 

[Pegasus]

I, too, would like to know the definitive answer on the legality of drilling and using spikes. I don't personally do it, but many friends do and all say it's legal.

If it is NOT legal, it surely isn't a law that gets enforced consistently.

I'm looking forward to being reminded of the NPS's official response for GCNRA enforcement as others are also. And what I"m hoping for for is an "official" to say yes you can or no you can't drill and use spikes at Lake Powell, not a reference to the fact that shoveling sand is technically illegal per the law so drilling must be also. I know it's a technicality but it seems there is enough confusion on this subject that a good clarification would be warranted.

If I were betting on what the answer is, I'd bet it's illegal but not enforced as an only offense, much like seat belt laws were in Utah for several years - against the law not to wear them, but they would not pull you over for 'just' not wearing them (I think this has changed now). -Doug

 

[John P Funk]

I agree with Pegasus, there's a big difference between legality, and enforcement.

 

[Cookie]

Federal code covering national parks, 36 CFR Part 1 § 2.1, prohibits "destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing [a] mineral resource." I don't know all the codes that the rangers have been using to issue tickets, but I do know that for purposes of this law, they call sandstone a "mineral resource" and that they call drilling a permanent hole "destroying, injuring [or] defacing."

Is Lake Powell a National Park? I thought it was a Recreation area managed by the National Park Service??? Big difference in this case, Lake Powell and Yosemite are quite different in what is allowed by users.

 

[Endurance]

Is Lake Powell a National Park? I thought it was a Recreation area managed by the National Park Service??? Big difference in this case, Lake Powell and Yosemite are quite different in what is allowed by users.

I should have said that better. 36 CFR Part 1 covers National Parks and National Recreation Areas. So the law making drilling sandstone a criminal act applies 100% at Powell.

As for enforcement, I am like many here. I don't take part in criminal activities, but have heard of those who do. It is kind of like the boaters who bury poop in the sand and rarely get caught. As bad as the recent beach poop episode is now that it comes to light, those folks would have gotten away with it had it not been for a WW member willing to step up and do something to report it.

 

[JAKEdotBIKE]

Nice - always post u're dumbest/illegal/ obvious videos on YouTube!!! Best I can make out it is "Twilight Barge" or Bilge - or close - let's get the NPS on this - no need to verify location!!!!A ____ H___S !!!

Looks like Twilight Breeze to me

 

[Jackalope]

I should have said that better. 36 CFR Part 1 covers National Parks and National Recreation Areas. So the law making drilling sandstone a criminal act applies 100% at Powell.

As for enforcement, I am like many here. I don't take part in criminal activities, but have heard of those who do. It is kind of like the boaters who bury poop in the sand and rarely get caught. As bad as the recent beach poop episode is now that it comes to light, those folks would have gotten away with it had it not been for a WW member willing to step up and do something to report it.

So, lets change this a little and instead of "drilling" you are parking your boat. I used to have a big heavy houseboat "Skipper Liner" After a few days of bouncing around it would put a nice divot in the rock. Kind of drilling because, after moving the boat there would be a 2 ft long 3 in -4 in hole created. Now, I know its not drilling but it is doing the same type of damage. If we were to take your legal opinion as stated, that would be "destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing". This would mean that All boats should be anchored off the shore to prevent such damage. Then what kind of anchor should we use, because that anchor would be dragging on the bottom defacing the rock?

Drilling sound bad and therefore should not be allowed but, parking a houseboat sounds better and should be allowed?

 

[Buffalo]

I agree with Jackalope 100%. How many drilling 'haters' have dug fire pits then enclosed them with gathered rocks? How is gathering rocks for a fire pit or to pile on an anchor not 'disturbing' the environment? For that matter just having a campfire on sandstone leaving blackened scorched rock behind is certainly 'disturbing'.

Unfortunately I don't believe we are going to get a definitive legal answer to this. I think it's going to remain vague and up to individuals to decide. I have seen (in the news) tickets issued for carving names, dates, or painting on the sandstone. Anyone have FIRSTHAND knowledge of a ticket for drilling an anchor point in the sandstone?

 

[Pccaptainjack]

The code that endurance quotes is for "national parks" and Lake Powell and the surrounding area is NOT a national park, but rather "National Recreation area" with very different (more lax?) rules. Could this be the confusion?

I believe the rule/code that Endurance posted is 100% accurate for a national park, but for Powell it is not

 

[Endurance]

Usually law enforcement and courts have to draw a line in situations like these. At one extreme is walking on the beach making 1/8" deep footprints. While that technically disturbs sand, any reasonable person would say that's not criminal and ought to be okay. At the other extreme would be something like using dynamite to blow up Rainbow Bridge. Even the most selfish only-care-about-me person on the planet would have to agree that this is criminal and not okay. Like it or not, you have to draw a line somewhere between the extremes.

The Park Service rangers draw a line between things that get covered over with the next windstorm or the next wave (like digging an anchor in the sand or leaving a divit on the shore) and things that will never recover (like drilling an anchor hole in the rock). That seems like a reasonable place to draw the line.

If you don't draw the line where the Park Service draws it, you have to chose another spot. If an inch and a quarter diameter anchor hole is okay, how about a two inch hole? If that is okay, how about a six inch hole? If that is okay, how about a foot diameter hole? A hole in the sandstone three feet wide and ten feet deep would keep a cooler shaded all day long. How about that? Hopefully, at some point before you get to dynamiting Rainbow Bridge, you draw a line somewhere. But draw a line you must. And things on either side of that line will seem similar and the line will seem arbitrary. Certainly more arbitrary than the Park Service line between temporary and permanent damage.

We don't always hear about the tickets that people get for their darkest hope-nobody-catches-me moments. For example, I don't know anyone who received a ticket for burying poop on the beach or driving their boat drunk. But I will extend a kind offer to anyone who thinks drilling a hole is okay and not criminal. If you will be kind enough to post the date and location of where you plan to drill, let's notify the Park Service to be there with a few witnesses and a smartphone to take video. Then we will all know.

 

[Cookie]

I have come into many camping spots where the holes are already drilled, is it ok to use them?

Just making an argument, but the docks at every location are drilled into the rocks (rainbow bridge, dangling rope), and in some cases in some canyons you can see rebar and cables hanging off the cliffs where at one time NPS used them??

I don't think people are using rebar anymore, most people drilling are regulars to Powell, they are not renters. They have a set up, with the right size drill bit and stakes (Stainless) that are easily removed. I certainly hope people aren't using rebar, seems very old school.

 

[scubatim]

So, lets change this a little and instead of "drilling" you are parking your boat. I used to have a big heavy houseboat "Skipper Liner" After a few days of bouncing around it would put a nice divot in the rock. Kind of drilling because, after moving the boat there would be a 2 ft long 3 in -4 in hole created. Now, I know its not drilling but it is doing the same type of damage. If we were to take your legal opinion as stated, that would be "destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing". This would mean that All boats should be anchored off the shore to prevent such damage. Then what kind of anchor should we use, because that anchor would be dragging on the bottom defacing the rock?

Drilling sound bad and therefore should not be allowed but, parking a houseboat sounds better and should be allowed?

Why in the world would anyone intentially damage and wear the hull of a very nice boat??? If you must park on a slick rock - good grief - take a couple old tires to park on!! We used to carry 2 for our pontoon boat - AND always took them with!!

 

[Jackalope]

Why in the world would anyone intentially damage and wear the hull of a very nice boat??? If you must park on a slick rock - good grief - take a couple old tires to park on!! We used to carry 2 for our pontoon boat - AND always took them with!!

Whoosh ^^^ that was the point going over your head

That boat is sill in the water 30 years old, big, heavy, steel hull ...

 

[ScottF]

I believe there are three on this thread who've said you use cams. It would be helpful if you could comment on:
1. Do you know if anyone produces high load steel cams? I can't find on the Internet. (Of course maybe they'd just tear through the sandstone anyway.)
2. The specs say climbing cams bear load of about 2,000 to 3,000 pounds, depending on size. This seems barely adequate. My ropes bear several times that much. Do you ever use a pair of cams with one rope?
3. I've noticed that the big Adonis boats out of Antelope Point, usually anchored by the AYS pros, mainly anchor into rock. I wonder if they use cams?
4. Cams reportedly have a "walking" problem, which would seem to be exacerbated by the wave action/rope movement we experience. Any problems with this?
5. What size cams do you most commonly use/size cracks deploy in? I'm finding sizes from 0.5" up to 8".
6. It would also be helpful if you could indicate on what size boat you've used cams - big difference between a small cruiser and a big houseboat.

 

[birdsnest]

This thread has become tedious. What has been accomplished after all the opinions? I will always try to tie my anchor rope around a rock 1st cause it's easiest,2nd I will dig a sand anchor hole and that's it. I will say a little prayer for the rock and sand. It's all about common sense isn't it? I can guarantee that if common sense is used the next person in your spot will be just fine. In fact I love to pull into a beach with the holes already dug. I thank the previous occupant. Just me though.

 

[eddy.price]

My reply embedded with italics:

I believe there are three on this thread who've said you use cams. It would be helpful if you could comment on:
1. Do you know if anyone produces high load steel cams? I can't find on the Internet. (Of course maybe they'd just tear through the sandstone anyway.)
- I don't think that steel cams are available. Your point of sandstone failure first could be the case depending on the crack conditions. Sandstone tends to be weak rock, especially when it absorbs water near the lake surface. Cams work by transitioning downward force (or in securing a boat line - the direction of the line) to outward (the crack plane) force.

2. The specs say climbing cams bear load of about 2,000 to 3,000 pounds, depending on size. This seems barely adequate. My ropes bear several times that much. Do you ever use a pair of cams with one rope?
- I have not been concerned with the strength limit for our 4,000 boat. Something to consider with a larger, heavier boat. I don't know what amount of force would be exerted by a 10,000 pound boat with varying winds/waves and rope or line rode stretch. Anyone with an engineering background want to run some force estimates?! Climbing, or falling more accurately, forces are dynamic, while most of the force from a boat anchor line would be static. Static force is calculated by multiplying the mass by the acceleration of gravity. Line will stretch, lessening the force of the boat pull on the cam.

3. I've noticed that the big Adonis boats out of Antelope Point, usually anchored by the AYS pros, mainly anchor into rock. I wonder if they use cams?
- Don't know about this. Anyone else have info on it?!

4. Cams reportedly have a "walking" problem, which would seem to be exacerbated by the wave action/rope movement we experience. Any problems with this?
- I have not experienced any problems with this. Keeping the line taught will help to set the cam and prevent any movement. I did pay attention to this when I placed a cam below the water surface at our previous camp. No problems with multiple overnights.

5. What size cams do you most commonly use/size cracks deploy in? I'm finding sizes from 0.5" up to 8".
- I use three Black Diamond cams, sizes 1, 3 and 5. They work for cracks ranging from 1 1/4" to 5" in width. That covers the majority of situations I have needed to use cams while on the lake.

6. It would also be helpful if you could indicate on what size boat you've used cams - big difference between a small cruiser and a big houseboat.
- Our boat is 20' and weighs about 4,000 lbs.

 

[scubatim]

I believe there are three on this thread who've said you use cams. It would be helpful if you could comment on:
1. Do you know if anyone produces high load steel cams? I can't find on the Internet. (Of course maybe they'd just tear through the sandstone anyway.)
2. The specs say climbing cams bear load of about 2,000 to 3,000 pounds, depending on size. This seems barely adequate. My ropes bear several times that much. Do you ever use a pair of cams with one rope?
3. I've noticed that the big Adonis boats out of Antelope Point, usually anchored by the AYS pros, mainly anchor into rock. I wonder if they use cams?
4. Cams reportedly have a "walking" problem, which would seem to be exacerbated by the wave action/rope movement we experience. Any problems with this?
5. What size cams do you most commonly use/size cracks deploy in? I'm finding sizes from 0.5" up to 8".
6. It would also be helpful if you could indicate on what size boat you've used cams - big difference between a small cruiser and a big houseboat.

We would never rely on cams for the houseboat. Strictly for holding the boat on a cliff to fish, in the shade for a mid day break and such. I have no experience with any thing larger than 1 - 1.5 inch cams but they work great - AND NO DRILLING REQUIRED!!