Drilling rock below high water line?

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The post above describing how to anchor a houseboat does not appear to be an official NPS document and instead appears to be a link to a suggested procedure . It also draws a conclusion not based on all the presented facts since it clearly states digging is also prohibited wether or not you leave it looking undisturbed , you still disturb the beach by digging. It still appears to be a subjective opinion in regards to what is destructive or disturbing to the native environment by a given individual, whether you leave it looking undisturbed or not.

What I would love to see is a clearly stated communication from the NPS stating it is or is not legal to drill holes and staking to achieve beach anchoring .
 
I'm willing to take instructions given on an nps.gov website, with an updated timestamp of August 11, of this year, as "official-enough" for me. They state clearly, and even include photos, that drilling is not an acceptable anchoring method - and it even has a specific associated fine (per hole). Everyone can choose to take their own risks, but I question whether you'll convince a judge that there wasn't any official instruction on the matter.
 
I can understand the confusion regarding the post, I may be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time , however it appears to me that the post utilized NPS photos in their instructions on anchoring creating the illusion of a official NPS communication . I strongly believe that the NPS would ever give instructions on how to anchor your boat, the liability would be astronomical and not worth the risk, but they can issue directives on what is an illegal method of anchoring within their scope of authority .

Would the group or person who posted the instructions please clarify if this is indeed a official NPS document and policy also where we can find it on their database.
 
Dane Coyle said:
I can understand the confusion regarding the post, I may be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time , however it appears to me that the post utilized NPS photos in their instructions on anchoring creating the illusion of a official NPS communication . I strongly believe that the NPS would ever give instructions on how to anchor your boat, the liability would be astronomical and not worth the risk, but they can issue directives on what is an illegal method of anchoring within their scope of authority .

Would the group or person who posted the instructions please clarify if this is indeed a official NPS document and policy also where we can find it on their database.
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If you are talking about this - this is the official GCRA website so yes that would be official - and note the person on page 3 who was approached by the rangers said they are cracking down on this and they are/were issuing an official notice on this for all to read. This is not a new rule, it is a long-ignored rule brought on by a lot of people who worked at Antelope and were paid to take boats out and anchor for customers and were encouraged to drill holes, one of those people used to post on WWs..

https://www.nps.gov/glca/learn/news/houseboat-staking.htm
 
Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing from its natural state:
(iv) A mineral resource.

So NPS cites a Federal Regulation that prohibits digging. Can someone explain how "digging" an anchor hole is OK when this document explicitly says it's not?
 
I envision tires being left behind because they were too heavy and buried up in the sand.
The NPS link above discourages climbing gear too. Just can't win sometimes.
We carry a pipe wrench to rotate and hopefully remove stakes let behind. Only needed it once
in West Canyon. We had just beached and noticed the stake in 2' of water off port side. It was a close call.
 
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Sedona said:
Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing from its natural state:
(iv) A mineral resource.

So NPS cites a Federal Regulation that prohibits digging. Can someone explain how "digging" an anchor hole is OK when this document explicitly says it's not?
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Sedona, I believe the rational is that "sandstone" is a "mineral resource" and sand/dirt is not.

I don't agree and think their logic and reasoning is quite flawed. However the link to the GCRA web site is as official we can hope for, unless the Superintendent decides to update the Compendium .
I still personally feel everything below the high water mark is permanently "disturbed from its natural state".
 
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Although excellent instructions on how to anchor a houseboat, it is without a doubt not an official NPS policy statement. I would suggest instead it was developed by the group Powell Watch and the NPS linked it as a courtesy for boaters.

Powell Watch appears to be a group that has the lakes best interests at heart and my hats off to anyone who will spend their own time to help insure the healthy environment we enjoy a Powell.

However ,this issue regarding the post can be easily solved by the party posting it providing the information requested above, just simply the location within the NPS database that shows the NPS created this document.

Even more simply, a clear communication from the NPS stating their policy, thus avoiding subjective interpretation base on fragmented information.

I have yet to hear from anyone sited for this infraction, does anyone have information based on fact of there ever being a citation issued to an individual.
 
Haven't been able to find a clear definition of "mineral resource" in any of the CFR's cited. Though prevailing definitions seem to indicate any mineral that has an economic value may be considered a "mineral resource". Coming from a state where sand was the preferred remedy to deal with winter ice, it would be hard to argue it's not a "mineral resource" if sandstone if somehow meeting the definition.

I think the point is is that the "advisory" is contradictory. If they start citing people for drilling based on this rationale, they need to start citing people for "digging" also. Might as well also start spot checking for tires at each point where the hull meets the beach and fining anyone leaving the slightest divot.
 
§2.1 Preservation of natural, cultural and archeological resources.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the following is prohibited:

(1) Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing from its natural state:

(i) Living or dead wildlife or fish, or the parts or products thereof, such as antlers or nests.

The same CFR chapter cited in that advisory also seems to prohibit possessing or injuring fish. Am I missing something? You can't possess living or dead fish?

The more I read and try to understand this new advisory the more confused I am about it's legality. I think whoever crafted this advisory (regardless of whatever "good intentions" they may have), did not adequately think it through.
 
Those CFR's cover all the national parks and recreation areas unless otherwise stated. So in the Glen Canyon compendium it states in what circumstances you can fish, gather or hunt.
 
@ Dane Coyle

The nice ranger I spoke about, apparently gave a ticket to the houseboat across the bay from us. 8 holes ... You do the math ;)
They also were sited for fireworks as well. It was a big Bravada ... So I guess if you wanted to know if they are really giving tickets, they are.

PS. Be nice to the ranger's I think they are trying to inform people now, but if you piss them off , good luck getting off with a warning.
 
I spoke with a couple workers at Antelope Point. Apparently owners are paying for "Pro's" to go out and anchor the the bigger boats in. They are drilling, and either do not care or don't know the law.
All the non-believers, I was one until this year ,are going to get a wake-up call when the enforcement starts.
I was told ~ 8 to 10 years ago by NPS ranger that as long as you are below the high water mark you could drill and place pins. Hell what do you think is being done at all the docks, Dangling Rope, Rainbow Bridge, Antelope Point. and ..... They are drilling HUGE anchor holes. So this would seem be a do as I say and not as I do...
 
Gem Morris said:
I wrote an email to Mary Plumb, Public Information Officer for GCNRA. She responded with this link:

https://www.nps.gov/glca/learn/news/houseboat-staking.htm

Bottom line, any drilling or use of existing holes is illegal.
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The bow of the boat must be in conact with the beach or rock. I would never risk an injury to any of my party by trying to put a tire under the bow and for what. There is no way a houseboat pulled onto a beach is going to cause damage.
 
Jackalope said:
I spoke with a couple workers at Antelope Point. Apparently owners are paying for "Pro's" to go out and anchor the the bigger boats in. They are drilling, and either do not care or don't know the law.
All the non-believers, I was one until this year ,are going to get a wake-up call when the enforcement starts.
I was told ~ 8 to 10 years ago by NPS ranger that as long as you are below the high water mark you could drill and place pins. Hell what do you think is being done at all the docks, Dangling Rope, Rainbow Bridge, Antelope Point. and ..... They are drilling HUGE anchor holes. So this would seem be a do as I say and not as I do...
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I wonder if they are issuing tickets for all the docks and buoys. My guess is not. This is something I would like to see how they expect people to anchor when all their documentation shows that there really is no way to anchor a boat because everything is a subjective no-no.
 
Jackalope said:
I spoke with a couple workers at Antelope Point. Apparently owners are paying for "Pro's" to go out and anchor the the bigger boats in. They are drilling, and either do not care or don't know the law.
All the non-believers, I was one until this year ,are going to get a wake-up call when the enforcement starts.
I was told ~ 8 to 10 years ago by NPS ranger that as long as you are below the high water mark you could drill and place pins. Hell what do you think is being done at all the docks, Dangling Rope, Rainbow Bridge, Antelope Point. and ..... They are drilling HUGE anchor holes. So this would seem be a do as I say and not as I do...
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How was the dam built? How are the floats at the dam kept in place? How is the fence above the intakes installed? How are the buoys on the rocks kept in place (mm 19). Are there foundations under the buildings? How about the NPS dispatch building down lake. I think this is getting blown way out of proportion. Just dig holes for the sand anchors or tie your anchor ropes around big boulders and I would bet everyone will be happy. No drilling or steel stakes, not even any tires. If this keeps getting blown up, there will be no boats on Powell, no buildings, no marinas, no NPS. Exactly what the drainers dream of.
 
A few thoughts on this thread:

1. It seems to me that those of you comparing a personal watercraft anchoring to a marina and its associated docks being anchored based on the fact that they both drill into the sandstone are grasping for straws in your argument to allow drilling. Marinas on Lake Powell are constructed under contract with NPS and under specific user agreements/licenses that allow them to do what they do. Even after being constructed, the marinas are required to gain permission from NPS to do as small of a thing as to move a pile of sand from one location to another (true story-one marina I know got in trouble for doing this without permission from NPS just a couple of years ago). This is similar to, with proper permits and environmental studies, an entity being allowed to build a freeway across the middle of an environmentally protected wetland; this approval for them doesn’t mean you, personally, can freely build your own road there.

2. This is the first time I have seen arguments on this website advocating FOR the destruction or defacing of GCNRA. This is an interesting turn to read from some who I thought were big LP advocates – I guess their argument is that drilling holes is not defacing or that digging holes in the sand is also defacing - which itself is an interesting position to take – one can be returned to EXACTLY like it was prior to our use – the other will always have a hole (no, filling with sand does not make it the same as before).

3. This problem (anchoring boats with pins/stakes) is not ‘new’ to the lake, but has been accelerated in recent years by this method being a far easier way to anchor larger houseboats that are more prevalent on the lake today. A friend of mine who owns one such houseboat told me that his teenage boys refuse to come to the lake if they must dig holes in the sand – they will only go if he agrees to allow them to drill into the sandstone. Yes, I’m serious. This “hole” problem is further exacerbated by the fact that the water level of the lake recently has not varied as much as it used to – thus beaches are used a lot more at water levels between 3600 and 3635 – a much tighter range than the first 30 years of the lakes existence (this past range was double today’s range and varied annually from 3620 to 3690 (just my guestimates here people!). Because of this, it’s not unusual at popular anchor locations on the South end to have drill holes numbering in the 20-30 easily visible holes at any water level in this range. 10 years from now, if nothing is changed, you can envision what this will do to the sandstone in this narrow range of elevation.

4. Lastly, I agree that the NPS should very clearly clarify their position on this subject. If it is truly the rule/law that will now be enforced, further clarification should be simple. If it’s just this years “flavor of the month” citation that will be forgotten by next year, I doubt they will further clarify. I am certain that those that I know who prefer drilling holes will not stop unless clarification from NPS is clear AND consistent citations are being written to offenders.

-Doug
 
Been coming to Powell for over 30 years now and watched each year as the lake gets more and more crowded. If an "official" no drill policy is now being enforced you're going to have a whole lot more boats competing for places to beach/tie and especially so in high water years when there is less sand. I guess those in the late night party scene or "wakesurf behind a dozen boats" crowd won't care so much but I prefer the peace and quiet that comes from boats being able to spread out more.
 
I think that Sedona has brought up a interesting observation regarding the number of boats on lake at a given time. Like him I have been visiting Powell since the early 80s and with the addition of a new marina along with its associated rental business, as well as shared ownership boats stored off lake such as Lake Time, the number of boats looking for spots has to have increased by at least 2.5 times , add to that people spreading out their equipment to secure a 600 ft wide beach presents its challenges when it comes to finding preferable and safe spots to anchor. I am unsure if the boaters on the north end have the same scenario to deal with since they have not had to deal with the increase of boats on the south end ?

I, like the majority of the boat owners I know are rule followers, and as Doug mentioned are seeking a clear and concise clarification from the NPS. I,m not sure if the NPS monitors the conversations on this board, I would have to assume they would since it is such a valuable resource in the fact that it provides insight into the questions and concerns of the people who cherish the lake and it's environment . If they are monitoring this site I would encourage them to be responsive to this issue and provide the clarification we are are requesting.

I would encourage the group that posted the original anchoring instructions, as requested previously, provide documentation of who created that document .
 
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