Surf Boats and Fishermen

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I think it’s about age/maturity. The average fisherman is most likely older and more mature than the average wake boater. We all know that for the most part that kids are wild animals, so I’m never that surprised when wake boats do silly reckless things.
Also I know that fishermen are focused on catching or trying to catch fish, wake boaters are focused on??? Partying?? Never did it before so I don’t know. Maybe they think that coming by my boat it includes me in the party? I remember once by the mouth of moki a wake boat came by and the girls were flashing their cans, which I guess was cool but my wife and kids were in boat. So not cool.
But I’ve also had fishing guys come park right on top of my spot when they see me catching fish, or rip a big wake right next to me when there is a whole lake to drive in.
But I don’t own the lake, and I put up with a lot of dumb humans every day of my life so if I don’t like whatever jackwagon who is around my boat I just go fish somewhere that is jackwagon free. The lake is plenty big for everybody.
So Zach as far as relations between fisherman and wake boats, probably a lost cause. Major difference is age and wisdom vs youth stupidity. White claw and truly are also problematic. And we are there for different purposes, I want tranquility and good fishing, most wake boaters want a party.
 
So here we have a gentleman that is trying to help with a serious challenge and I see a lot of negativity, which sucks. Zach, thanks for making the effort and if you only educate/change 20% of the folks out there, good on you. Just getting the thought process of action/reaction with wakes is huge in my opinion. From my perspective that is the real difference. I agree that there are some (on both sides) that will know/not care AND…there are folks that just never considered their effect on other users, and those are the ones that you can educate. my personal input would be to not make large wakes in canyons with campers, houseboats, fishermen etc. Use open water. That alone would be a great change. Thanks for reaching out and making a great attempt, it is appreciated (By most).

TR
 
ZachS said:
Hey guys! So for those of you who don’t know, I run the page Powellheadz. For years now wakesurfers and fisherman have always had a really rocky relationship. I know a lot of fisherman complain about wakesurfers and vice versa. As Powell continues to grow in popularity and more boats visit the lake, that relationship is only going to get worse. UNLESS we attack the problem head on. While I agree some people are just plain jerks and don’t care. I believe a lot of people are just uneducated in basic boating safety and etiquette. I would like to create some content educating people on these topics so that hopefully I can help rebuild the relationship between wakeboat owners and fishermen. As someone who enjoys both sports, I hope to make Powell a better experience for both parties. Because in the end. We are all on the same team and all want to see Lake Powell around for years and years to come. I would love your input on any ideas or certain topics that you think would be worth making content around. (please keep your criticism constructive and let’s not tear each other down.) Thanks guys:) Long Live Lake Powell!
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Hey Zach. I follow your content and really appreciate your efforts to improve Lake Powell. I'm first and foremost a fisherman but we used to own a wakeboard boat so I understand both sides of it. I've been on lakes since I was a baby and learned to drive a boat at a young age so I've seen my fair share of it and it's definitely gotten worse over the years. Don't get me started on Deer Creek 🤬. Not only do we have issues as fishermen but also as people with beached houseboats. People simply don't know the rules of the water. You should stay at least 100-150 feet away from another boat when passing them. This rarely happens when there's plenty of space for people to spread out. For beached houseboats, why the heck do people need to surf in the back of the little canyon we're parked in? Please find an empty one or be out on the main lake if it's not too windy.

When it comes to fishing, boats often just fly past us while we're fishing along the shoreline or a rock wall which is dangerous for us. Even worse, they'll drive so close to us, we don't have time to adjust and end up taking on water at the front of the boat. If someone is surfing, please keep your distance. If no one isn't, take the 30 seconds to slow down to a wakeless speed as you pass fisherman as to not rock us to death.

All in all, boaters just aren't educated to the rules of the water like car drivers are because there's no requirement. Also, spreading common curtesy would go a long way as well since it seems that is diminishing with the rising generation of wakeboard boaters.

Again, thanks for your efforts and others are right, no need for negativity. Let's learn to share the lake together and not add to the problem.
 
@ZachS I've thought for a long time that you are in a unique position to help with this issue. You aren't going to solve it but you have a big voice. I'd be happy if you covered
-Jet ski etiquette (they like to follow wake boats too closely). They also are required to keep 150 from each other even if they are riding together. Worst accidents w PWCs happen w families and friends trying to spray each other.
-Following etiquette/safety in general. I'm surprised how many people will follow right behind me when I'm towing a skier, tuber, surfer, etc
-Dive flags means someone is under the water and should stay away. SCUBA and spearfishing are increasingly common at Lake Powell. Most people have no clue on this.
-Big wakes going past houseboats at the back of a canyon. Often times they aren't even skiing, they are just in a hurry to get to their boat.

Keep up the good work!
 
ZachS said:
Hey guys! So for those of you who don’t know, I run the page Powellheadz. For years now wakesurfers and fisherman have always had a really rocky relationship. I know a lot of fisherman complain about wakesurfers and vice versa. As Powell continues to grow in popularity and more boats visit the lake, that relationship is only going to get worse. UNLESS we attack the problem head on. While I agree some people are just plain jerks and don’t care. I believe a lot of people are just uneducated in basic boating safety and etiquette. I would like to create some content educating people on these topics so that hopefully I can help rebuild the relationship between wakeboat owners and fishermen. As someone who enjoys both sports, I hope to make Powell a better experience for both parties. Because in the end. We are all on the same team and all want to see Lake Powell around for years and years to come. I would love your input on any ideas or certain topics that you think would be worth making content around. (please keep your criticism constructive and let’s not tear each other down.) Thanks guys:) Long Live Lake Powell!
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Thanks for raising this issue. We have another thread that covered this very topic elsewhere in this forum. It might be a good idea to visit that. As I recall, one of the main points in that thread was that we should emphasize the legal aspects of damaging someones property or seriously injuring someone with a wake. It could result in loss of boating privileges, loss of the boat or even worse.
 
Zach-- It's really great that you're reaching out, and I really appreciate your passion for Lake Powell, and your commitment to bridging gaps between people who use this great resource.

In solving this problem, I think Lake Powell presents a unique challenge compared to other places in the world that also draw a lot of people. When people think of going to a museum, everybody knows what a museum is--you respect the artifacts on display, don't touch anything, marvel at what you're seeing, quietly enjoy the place, and learn new things. On the other hand, when people go to Disneyland, they just want to have fun! Big crowds, sore feet, bad food, overstimulation--it's what everyone expects and it's part of the atmosphere. Then there's the solitude of the forest: when people go to the forest high on a mountain, they just want to get away from it all. Or when people are going to the family reunion, it's all about just sharing a good time with people you don't see that often, and the surroundings really don't matter--could be a house, a backyard, a community center--who cares? It's all about the people. And finally, nobody would disagree that if you go to church, it's a place of quiet and personal contemplation and community, a place of ultimate respect.

And so the unique thing about Lake Powell is that it is all those things at the same time, it just depends on who you're asking. And the problem is that those different groups, who come for very different reasons, apply their own rules, as if those other groups didn't exist.

So I'd argue it's not just about wakesurfers and anglers, it's also people who like to read books quietly, those who like to explore, nature-seekers, and those who just appreciate being with their friends. And many others who come for their own reasons. Not everybody owns a boat (I don't). Not everybody goes fishing (I don't). And not everybody likes to wakeboard/surf (I don't).

That's how I frame the challenge. Start with the big tent. Figure out who's in it. Get them together. Understand and respect the different (and sometimes contradictory) reasons why those people love Lake Powell. But also understand that whatever you do, you can't infringe on the safe enjoyment of others. And only then will you get people to start respecting the existing rules of the lake, because that's exactly why those rules are in place. It's not just a question of education. We all know the speed limit on the highway, and yet most of us break the law, because we perceive that going a little fast on the open road isn't hurting anyone else, or a danger to ourselves. It's more about understanding the consequences of our personal actions, and how they might affect other people.

You know, I get the idea the people buy fast expensive boats because they want to use them. And Lake Powell is the most attractive inland water highway in the country. And it looks like because there are no signs, and so few people, there are no enforceable rules. But again, it's not just about following the rules, it's about being aware--situtational awareness, as they say in baseball. If you are on open water in clear weather, and nobody is around, that's one thing. But in a narrow canyon with blind turns, or if you see a parked boat, or someone with a line in the water, that's another thing. If this were a city, and you drove past a school in session, you'd automatically slow down, with or without prompting, because you have situational awareness. Or on a mountain road, with many turns, you slow down. Or a pedestrian zone downtown, you do the same thing. And you do that because you empathize with the other people you might encounter in those situations.

So yes, thank you Zach--it's a very important conversation to have, and thank you for starting it.
 
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Rule of thumb should be if a houseboat or any boat is camping up a canyon then go wake less, if you can't see around a corner go wake less, if someone is fishing or retrieving a person in the water go wake less and you should treat everyone like you would like to be treated. That has worked well raising my kids and grandkids and has really made me proud to hear my grandkids say the same thing now.
A lot of the trouble is just no respect, most violators just don't give a s...
I wonder if it would help if the rangers would actually start ticketing violators? I would even be agreeable to have a small fee tacked on to our boat registrations/use/camping fees for just that purpose.
Attitudes have changed over the years so maybe some attitude adjustments are in order? Education is the key but not everyone can be educated.
 
Squirrel said:
We don’t need more rules and regulations, we need enforcement of the existing laws. There is where the problem starts. Sq
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Agreed. But what we really need is for people to think about how their actions are affecting others. You shouldn't need to be enforced to have some courtesy. Seems like common sense, but it doesn't seem to be all that common unfortunately.
 
ZachS, As mentioned here recently understand who’s in the tent with you. Include everyone not just these two groups. Lots of other people have boats with different interests and use the lake differently. Utilize the search button. Just typing in a handful of words describing your topic on wakeboarding or the real issue here, wake surfing which uses ballast tanks would net you more material than you probably really want. Plenty of responses, educational ideas to work with from many other posts. The topic has been discussed ad nauseam. Gather your information, present your ideas back to this forum for opinions and feedback on content you might choose to post on your many social media formats you manage. I commend the attempt you are making. I have my doubts but reaching out is a first step.

Below is a direct quote from a member on a different post regarding the topic. For me It cannot be said more simply.

“But the purpose of a wake boat is to make a giant wake, and the activity inherently requires the boat to go up and down, back and forth. It is not like passing by once...
Some wakeboarders are surely aware of the resulting havoc their activity is creating for other boaters. But the sheer animosity towards them by other boaters is a pretty good indicator that it is not the norm...”

See the video in the link below from one of your social media pages. Over the top yes, but it isn’t fake. You have a fair amount of influence with your social media. Use it wisely.


I do not deny your passion for the lake, but this is one of many videos you have on your websites promoting the lake life and various styles of watersports. It’s understood by me that this isn’t you, but I would hope that you realize by highlighting this type of content on your social media it makes your stated goal on this post come across as a bit confusing. This is only one of many videos you have on your media where there are questionable safety issues being grossly ignored by followers of your social media. All adults on the vids are responsible for themselves but I believe you bear some responsibility when you allow this content on your media pages.

From another angle I would be curious to hear what wake surfers have to say about fishermen. Your comment: “I know a lot of fisherman complain about wakesurfers and vice versa.” Like many others on WW and yourself I do it all on the water. I am trying to understand the beef a wakeboard or wake surfing enthusiast may have towards a fisherman in a boat doing some of the most basic activities of a fisherman be that trolling, casting towards the bank, or anchored against a wall spooning or soaking the smell out of dead anchovies. I would be interested to hear how these activities are affecting boaters who are wake surfing or wakeboarding on a lake the size of Powell. What are fishermen doing that annoys wake surfers? Understanding is half the battle. Certain we are all open to listening. I am.
 
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I think educational flyers handed out on the ramps to launching boaters would be the most effective.

I love JCR’s narrative above about different people having different goals for their time at Powell and being respectful of that.

— boat far away from fishermen no matter where they are located as they are protecting the fishery for all of us
— always slow down around beached boats in canyons to prevent damage
— no wakesurfing with ballast water in canyons, ever
— keep your music down unless you’re by yourself
— there’s 2,000 miles of shoreline so find your own area and don’t invade other people’s space

——

Bunny trail…

Towing skiers and wakeboarders, I need fairly smooth water. The newer the skier or boarder, the smoother the water needed. I could tow them with my old cobalt and now with my newer surf boat. Ballast water is *not* used and my wakes aren’t that bad but of course, I avoid others. When teaching, I’d search for an empty canyon (the next couple north of Moki were often perfect). For more experienced peeps, the walls on the main channel north of Moki or south of Halls and the back of Bullfrog are generally great,

But man, when I fill the ballasts with 6,000+ pounds of water for wake surfing, I put out a wake like a cabin cruiser even though top speed is 14mph. The beauty is that it’s an easier sport and doesn’t require smooth water since the surfer is riding right next to the boat. Thus it’s easy to stay on the edges of the the main lake. There is no reason for surfing in canyons, ever. Even if they’re totally empty, you rock yourself crazy in your own wakes when you turn back the other way.

Finally, in my 75 trips to Powell, cabin cruisers have been the most irritating to me on the lake. Those wakes are massive and you just have to deal with it. Be aware, slow down, adjust direction, make sure the riders in my bow don’t get hurt. I’d never dream of bashing cruisers as bad people though. It’s just the nature of their boats.

Thanks Zach for asking.

PS, I’m a north and mid-lake boater (and miss my days of being a real north lake boater from Farleys) and my experiences and opinions may not hold true on the busier south lake.

PSS, I’m also old and have done “all the things” at Powell — shore camping, houseboating, fishing, towing little on tubes, cliff jumping, hiking and exploring, sleeping on the boat, and having teens and young adults wanting to do more challenging water sports, etc so it’s easier for me to understand this question from all sides. That’s why JCR’s comments were so on point for me.
 
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I have also had issues with cabin cruisers, one of which resulted in a broken houseboat window due to a reckless maneuver on his part. The other nearly resulted in injury and boat damage as two cruisers came out of Forgotten past the pump out dock while each generated a massive wake.

I don't to vilify any individual kind of boat, since I have had issues at one time or another with nearly every kind of boat. Paraphrasing the old NRA slogan, boats don't cause massive wakes, people do. Education and enforcement are the only way we will see the issues around unsafe boating go away.
 
Chillindacove#21 said:
ZachS, As mentioned here recently understand who’s in the tent with you. Include everyone not just these two groups. Lots of other people have boats with different interests and use the lake differently. Utilize the search button. Just typing in a handful of words describing your topic on wakeboarding or the real issue here, wake surfing which uses ballast tanks would net you more material than you probably really want. Plenty of responses, educational ideas to work with from many other posts. The topic has been discussed ad nauseam. Gather your information, present your ideas back to this forum for opinions and feedback on content you might choose to post on your many social media formats you manage. I commend the attempt you are making. I have my doubts but reaching out is a first step.

Below is a direct quote from a member on a different post regarding the topic. For me It cannot be said more simply.

“But the purpose of a wake boat is to make a giant wake, and the activity inherently requires the boat to go up and down, back and forth. It is not like passing by once...
Some wakeboarders are surely aware of the resulting havoc their activity is creating for other boaters. But the sheer animosity towards them by other boaters is a pretty good indicator that it is not the norm...”

See the video in the link below from one of your social media pages. Over the top yes, but it isn’t fake. You have a fair amount of influence with your social media. Use it wisely.


I do not deny your passion for the lake, but this is one of many videos you have on your websites promoting the lake life and various styles of watersports. It’s understood by me that this isn’t you, but I would hope that you realize by highlighting this type of content on your social media it makes your stated goal on this post come across as a bit confusing. This is only one of many videos you have on your media where there are questionable safety issues being grossly ignored by followers of your social media. All adults on the vids and responsible for themselves but I believe you bear some responsibility when you allow this content on your media pages.

From another angle I would be curious to hear what wake surfers have to say about fishermen. Your comment: “I know a lot of fisherman complain about wakesurfers and vice versa.” Like many others on WW and yourself I do it all on the water. I am trying to understand the beef a wakeboard or wake surfing enthusiast may have towards a fisherman in a boat doing some of the most basic activities of a fisherman be that trolling, casting towards the bank, or anchored against a wall spooning or soaking the smell out of dead anchovies. I would be interested to hear how these activities are affecting boaters who are wake surfing or wakeboarding on a lake the size of Powell. What are fishermen doing that annoys wake surfers? Understanding is half the battle. Certain we are all open to listening. I am.
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Wow couldn’t have said it any better!
This video leaves me speechless.
 
All very good and thoughtful comments from this group, right on the mark. I do think there's something to be said for the wisdom and perspective that comes with age and life experience, and it's clear there's no shortage of that on this site. I think an interesting point was raised about "what problems do wake surfers have with fishermen?" I'm not sure what the answer to that might be, since I'm in neither camp, but it did raise a slightly broader question: "why does one group of lake users have a problem with any other?" And to me, the answer is simple--it's because they get in the way of their way of enjoying the lake.

So if you like to party and play loud music at night, the quiet people across the way who come by and tell you to "turn it down" are ruining your experience. Or if you're the quiet people, it's the music that's ruining your night. If you fish in a quiet cove, those wake boats are your worst nightmare. But if you're on the wake boat, and you see those two guys in the little skiff trolling near the entrance to a canyon right where you want to take your boat, you're thinking "to hell with them, there's more of us..." Or from my own experience, when I once pitched a tent on a great beach in Fifty-Mile Canyon, and came back later that day to find three houseboats had taken over my beach (!), I was a little peeved to say the least, and yet they were unapologetic ("we needed this beach more than you did!"...almost a literal quote)...

There's a false equivalence in each of these situations. The angler does not require much space, just the right place. And does not make noise, nor change the hydraulics of the lake. In other words, the presence of the fisherman does not project very far. On the other hand, the surfboater has a huge influence on the lake, and on those who are nearby, and thus needs to understand this before deciding "this is the spot". Same goes for the music (or a loud generator late into the night). A quiet group is almost invisible, does not project its presence on anyone. But the party boat is just the opposite. Again, the group that makes the biggest impact is the one that needs to rethink its location, or scale back its activity so as not to affect others. And in the case of my hijacked beach camp, what could I do? I retreated to a spot high on the hill to a cave, got up early the next morning and left. But not before I had a good discussion with the more reasonable among their group, and in front of their kids, to explain why this was not cool.

Again, it's about situational awareness, understanding how intrusive your activity might be before you ever start, empathy toward those you might affect, and when you cause a problem, a willingness to stand up and make it right by those you affected...
 
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Zach,
Thanks for trying to put something together --- my opinion is that most of the issues revolve around just common courtesy. If every boater had that, we would not be having the conversation----
I looked at the video posted above and my 1st thought was that the surfer, the boat owner, and the boat driver should all be arrested, thrown in jail, and the boat confiscated --
But then I thought about it some more --- is it stupid --- hell yes--- should they do it--- hell no --- but --- IF and that is a big IF -- they are not disturbing anyone else --- I have no beef --- a lot of us do and have done reckless and or stupid things in our time on this spinning ball, but if it is not disturbing others I personally do not have a issue.
Based on experience, the % of surf boat owners with common courtesy is way less that other types of boat owners, so that is the reason they are disliked by so many fisherman.
How to get that message out to be more courteous to other boaters--- that is a tough one.
Education is important, but that is hard to do for boating -- the boat owner needs to want to educate themselves for this to happen

Good luck to on and thanks for putting in the effort
 
All great points except, “the people driving wake surfing boats are also idiots on the docks”… We go to the lake for one reason, to wakesurf.

If we someone fishing, we pull the surfer.
If we see a houseboat on anchor up a canyon, we pull the surfer.
If someone docks their houseboat near ours, we surf early but we don’t play music, we don’t drive back and forth past them.
If we go to the docks and get ice, we tip them.
If we go get gas, we tip them.
If a boat needs a tow, we tow them.
If someone’s houseboat comes off the beach from a storm, my crew is the first one digging the anchor holes and helping getting their boat back on the beach.
When our houseboat leaves the beach at the end of our stay, our beach is cleaner than when we got there. We gather trash that is years old and bring it back to the dock.


Been going to the lake for many years. There are people acting like fools that fish, waterski, wake surf, sightsee, too many to name. What would help is just a little communication and some kindness. One time try to flag the boat down and say, “would you mind (insert whatever) down the canyon a little further”, or whatever would make the situation better and explaining why its dangerous or bothers you. I believe that you will have a pretty good outcome more often than not. Sometimes people just get so caught up in their fun that they forget about how it is affecting others and aren’t doing it to be rude or dangerous.. Communication and education on the lake between the people on the lake will have a positive result.


Now, if it doesn’t work and the behavior continues, then feel free to shoot bottle rockets at them or conduct a night op and insert on to their beach and extract their coolers, hit them where it hurts….. just kidding.
 
Sherrie (prev MB 2000) said:
I think educational flyers handed out on the ramps to launching boaters would be the most effective.

I love JCR’s narrative above about different people having different goals for their time at Powell and being respectful of that.

— boat far away from fishermen no matter where they are located as they are protecting the fishery for all of us
— always slow down around beached boats in canyons to prevent damage
— no wakesurfing with ballast water in canyons, ever
— keep your music down unless you’re by yourself
— there’s 2,000 miles of shoreline so find your own area and don’t invade other people’s space

——

Bunny trail…

Towing skiers and wakeboarders, I need fairly smooth water. The newer the skier or boarder, the smoother the water needed. I could tow them with my old cobalt and now with my newer surf boat. Ballast water is *not* used and my wakes aren’t that bad but of course, I avoid others. When teaching, I’d search for an empty canyon (the next couple north of Moki were often perfect). For more experienced peeps, the walls on the main channel north of Moki or south of Halls and the back of Bullfrog are generally great,

But man, when I fill the ballasts with 6,000+ pounds of water for wake surfing, I put out a wake like a cabin cruiser even though top speed is 14mph. The beauty is that it’s an easier sport and doesn’t require smooth water since the surfer is riding right next to the boat. Thus it’s easy to stay on the edges of the the main lake. There is no reason for surfing in canyons, ever. Even if they’re totally empty, you rock yourself crazy in your own wakes when you turn back the other way.

Finally, in my 75 trips to Powell, cabin cruisers have been the most irritating to me on the lake. Those wakes are massive and you just have to deal with it. Be aware, slow down, adjust direction, make sure the riders in my bow don’t get hurt. I’d never dream of bashing cruisers as bad people though. It’s just the nature of their boats.

Thanks Zach for asking.

PS, I’m a north and mid-lake boater (and miss my days of being a real north lake boater from Farleys) and my experiences and opinions may not hold true on the busier south lake.

PSS, I’m also old and have done “all the things” at Powell — shore camping, houseboating, fishing, towing little on tubes, cliff jumping, hiking and exploring, sleeping on the boat, and having teens and young adults wanting to do more challenging water sports, etc so it’s easier for me to understand this question from all sides. That’s why JCR’s comments were so on point for me.
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Handout flyers will do ZERO good. There are a few things that 99% of people do with them!
Throw them in the trash
Throw them in the back seat and then in the trash when they get home.
Or wad them up and use them to start their campfire on the beach!
Just saying!
 
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