Surf Boats and Fishermen

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kilojuliett said:
I am an old school slalom skier. I am very picky and only go on smooth water. I grew up engaging in every kind of watersport fun and danger that a teenager could think of, but this was way before anyone even thought of a wake boat. So I can understand that people want to have fun. My question to the wakeboard boats is when these boats are NOT actively wakeboarding do they continue underway with all of the ballast onboard? I am at the lake an average of 5-6 weeks a year. My longterm observations of wakeboats indicates to me that many wake board boats often travel underway with all of the ballast onboard to improve the ride for their wakeboat and passengers aboard, especially when traveling through areas that have already been chopped up. This makes the conditions worse for other boats but no one is actually wakeboarding.
How easy / difficult is it for these boats to pump out and / or take on ballast water? How long does it take?
Is the carrying of ballast when not wakeboarding a topic that is ever discussed within the wakeboard community?
is this something that the wakeboard community could be educated on?
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Depending on the boat brand, I would say most people are not going to cruise around the lake with full ballast in their wakebaord/surf boats. Multiple disadvantages: harder to get on plane, sucks more gas, less responsive for quick turns. Also, on mine if you shut the boat off for a quick swim with ballast in the boat it will start a timer on the main screen that after 4 minutes the boat will auto-drain all the ballast if the boat remains off.

Out of the brands I have owned, Centurion, Supreme, MB Sports, and Sanger none of those brands were hard to fill or drain the ballast, probably each of the brands listed are between 6 to10 mins to completely fill or drain, which would range from 3k to 5k+ pounds of ballast depending on brand again.

However, everyone is different and each person/crew setup things differently. I have heard of people purchasing 1000's of pounds in hard ballast bags, steel shot bags. Which are always on the boat as extra weight/ballast. However, that would also be the case if you had a large crew, if you had 18 people on a new 26 foot boat that is probably above 3k pounds in people.
 
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gavin218 said:
Depending on the boat brand, I would say most people are not going to cruse around the lake with full ballast in their wakebaord/surf boats. Multiple disadvantages: harder to get on plane, sucks more gas, less responsive for quick turns. Also, on mine if you shut the boat off for a quick swim with ballast in the boat it will start a timer on the main screen that after 4 minutes the boat will auto-drain all the ballast if the boat remains off.

Out of the brands I have owned, Centurion, Supreme, MB Sports, and Sanger none of those brands were hard to fill or drain the ballast, probably each of the brands listed are between 6 to10 mins to completely fill or drain, which would range from 3k to 5k+ pounds of ballast depending on brand again.

However, everyone is different and each person/crew setups things up differently. I have heard of people purchasing 1000's of pounds in hard ballast bags, steel shot bags. Which are always on the boat as extra weight/ballast. However, that would also be the case if you had a large crew, if you had 18 people on a new 26 foot boat that is probably above 3k pounds in people.
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I have read this multiple times that “people won’t cruise around with full ballast” so I started paying attention and passed multiple boats with what appeared to be full ballast just cruising at a slow speed and creating a huge wake. Just to look cool? Completely inexperienced operators? Maybe the steel weight you talk about? Unsure, but I saw plenty last Memorial Day weekend.

Everyone else has said plenty and there’s not much for me to add besides reiterating the fact that these boats have no idea how maddening it is to get continually rocked. I shared a story previously of multiple boats surfing and wakeboarding in bullfrog bay last year. I assume it was an activity that “they’ve always done” but the bay isnt close to what it used to be and really made everything very dangerous. It feels like common sense for most of us, but it just may not be. There wasn’t even a way to dodge these boats. Right off the bat everyone is aggravated instead of enjoying lake Powell.
 
mobilerat said:
How much would you have to fine someone on a $100000 boat to get their attention?
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Most cars I see driving to the lake are SUV’s or trucks. Price range for either of these vehicles is somewhere between 50k-100k. Would a $500 ticket for getting caught for speeding be an inconvenience? Don’t assume that a nice boat means a big wallet. Don’t know many people that paid cash for any type of boat purchase. Ranger bass boats start around 50K, nice surf boat starts around 90k. As they say, anything nice is just decent credit and a payment away…

On the drive to the lake I’m always amazed at the cars and the boats they are pulling. I add the cost of the boat and the cost of the car pulling it, never seems to be less than 100k. Then throw in the cost for a houseboat/gas/food for a week and it really starts to add up.

Lake Powell is a very expensive experience if you’re part of the houseboat and towing a boat tribe.
 
The biggest problem is the boats themselves. The shear volume of boats on Powell makes things difficult, especially with this low water situation which constricts the lake, however when you add boats whose sole purpose is to throw a big wake you make an already difficult situation nearly intolerable. I fail to see why boats that can throw a wake big enough to flip over a medium size bass boat should be allowed on any freshwater lake.

Yes, education on safe boating practices can help, but the fundamental problem is these boats throw wakes that in themselves create a dangerous situation. All the safe boating education in the world can't change that. These boats are an inherent danger to the boating public.

Ed Gerdemann
 
kilojuliett said:
My question to the wakeboard boats is when these boats are NOT actively wakeboarding do they continue underway with all of the ballast onboard? I am at the lake an average of 5-6 weeks a year. My longterm observations of wakeboats indicates to me that many wake board boats often travel underway with all of the ballast onboard to improve the ride for their wakeboat and passengers aboard, especially when traveling through areas that have already been chopped up. This makes the conditions worse for other boats but no one is actually wakeboarding.
How easy / difficult is it for these boats to pump out and / or take on ballast water? How long does it take?
Is the carrying of ballast when not wakeboarding a topic that is ever discussed within the wakeboard community?
is this something that the wakeboard community could be educated on?
Click to expand...
The answer to your first question is.... No. When I have my surf boat loaded up to surf it will only go 14 mph max (full throttle), won't get up on plane at all, and handles like a battleship. Not to mention you can almost watch the gas gauge dropping. As soon as we are done surfing we dump ballast. I have a dozen friends with wake boats and they all do the same. I don't know anyone rides around with full ballast

It does not "improve the ride for either boat or passengers" to travel anywhere with full ballasts....chopped up or not.

How difficult is it to fill or empty ballasts you ask. Depends on the boat. Newer boats fill and empty faster than older ones. Roughly 4 to 10 minutes to fill/empty depending on the boat.

However, many of the new boats fill the ballast using water pressure (called Ramfill). Basically you get up to about 12 mph and then open some gate valves and the water pressure force fills ballast tanks. This takes about 30-45 seconds. During this time of filling it may appear that a wakeboat is just driving around with ballast. Likewise to empty this kind of ballast you get up to about 12 mph and open gate valves on the rear of the boat and all the water drains out by gravity. This also takes about 30-45 seconds. During this time it may look like the wakeboat is just driving around with ballast.

These new wakeboats are heavy in the water even with out ballast full. 5000 to 8000 pounds of boat dry weight. They have very deep V hulls that displace a ton of water. Even completely empty of ballast many of them are carrying 60-90 gallons of gas, lots of stereo equipment and many batteries, and often times anywhere between 6 and 15 people. They sit low in the water. At any speed less than on plane they throw a very large wake even without ballast. So I believe what you are seeing and experiencing as wakeboats driving around with loaded ballast is not what you think it is. Nobody that knows what they are doing is doing that.

These boats just do not make dainty little wakes like a flat bottom ski boat, a sleek bass boat, an aluminum fishing boat, or even a family runabout boat. They are built different with a different purpose..... to make waves that you can surf on without using a rope to pull you.

I know it does not sit well with some people. Not trying to justify it...... Just trying to explain.
 
Ed_on_WD said:
Weren't ballast bags on wakeboats the most likely source of Lake Powell's mussel infestation?
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A quick google search just said it likely came in on "recreational boats". I am sure those people that are hating on the wakeboats would love for your statement to be true. But truth be told we will never know. It was just a likely to be a live well on a fishing boat as it was a ballast bag on a wakeboat, or attached to some cabin cruiser that came from Lake Mead.
 
My family has been on Powell since the beginning, my Grandpa actually worked for 3 years building the Dam. We've seen many many changes over the years, boats have grown in size quite a bit. But the most extreme changes have come in the past twenty years, with all the Wake boats designed to make MASSIVE waves. Boat manufacturers have gotten better and better at creating these monstrous waves.

We could all discuss differences of manners/etchics of various generations and NEVER fully agree on the cause, because everyone is so different. But what we CAN all agree on, is the giant waves that are destroying so many different people's lake experiences are the new factor here. I am definitely not the type of person that leans towards regulation of anything, but it is blatantly obvious that Wakeboats are the source of the waves, and THEY are the ones that regulation will be coming to. How that happens, nobody knows, but to me, change is imminent.
 
Lake Bum said:
My family has been on Powell since the beginning, my Grandpa actually worked for 3 years building the Dam. We've seen many many changes over the years, boats have grown in size quite a bit. But the most extreme changes have come in the past twenty years, with all the Wake boats designed to make MASSIVE waves. Boat manufacturers have gotten better and better at creating these monstrous waves.

We could all discuss differences of manners/etchics of various generations and NEVER fully agree on the cause, because everyone is so different. But what we CAN all agree on, is the giant waves that are destroying so many different people's lake experiences are the new factor here. I am definitely not the type of person that leans towards regulation of anything, but it is blatantly obvious that Wakeboats are the source of the waves, and THEY are the ones that regulation will be coming to. How that happens, nobody knows, but to me, change is imminent.
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VERY well said Travis.
 
Lake Bum said:
My family has been on Powell since the beginning, my Grandpa actually worked for 3 years building the Dam. We've seen many many changes over the years, boats have grown in size quite a bit. But the most extreme changes have come in the past twenty years, with all the Wake boats designed to make MASSIVE waves. Boat manufacturers have gotten better and better at creating these monstrous waves.

We could all discuss differences of manners/etchics of various generations and NEVER fully agree on the cause, because everyone is so different. But what we CAN all agree on, is the giant waves that are destroying so many different people's lake experiences are the new factor here. I am definitely not the type of person that leans towards regulation of anything, but it is blatantly obvious that Wakeboats are the source of the waves, and THEY are the ones that regulation will be coming to. How that happens, nobody knows, but to me, change is imminent.
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Back in the late 60's early 70's when jet boats with large displacement engines, and loud exhausts, were coming on to the seen, the insurance companies stepped in and began "regulating" them according to horse power and speed capabilities. For a while we didn't have insurance requirements in Utah. When the state started mandating liability requirements, the go fast jet boats started to disappear from the lakes where patrols were prevalent. I owned a 19 ft. with a 460 jet drive and could not find an insurance company that would cover me if I admitted it could break 50 mph. As the insurance companies "wake" up [pun intended] to the possible damage that large specifically designed boats can cause, maybe they will become the regulators. History does repeat..., occasionally.
 
Bigcatpt said:
The answer to your first question is.... No. When I have my surf boat loaded up to surf it will only go 14 mph max (full throttle), won't get up on plane at all, and handles like a battleship. Not to mention you can almost watch the gas gauge dropping. As soon as we are done surfing we dump ballast. I have a dozen friends with wake boats and they all do the same. I don't know anyone rides around with full ballast

It does not "improve the ride for either boat or passengers" to travel anywhere with full ballasts....chopped up or not.

How difficult is it to fill or empty ballasts you ask. Depends on the boat. Newer boats fill and empty faster than older ones. Roughly 4 to 10 minutes to fill/empty depending on the boat.

However, many of the new boats fill the ballast using water pressure (called Ramfill). Basically you get up to about 12 mph and then open some gate valves and the water pressure force fills ballast tanks. This takes about 30-45 seconds. During this time of filling it may appear that a wakeboat is just driving around with ballast. Likewise to empty this kind of ballast you get up to about 12 mph and open gate valves on the rear of the boat and all the water drains out by gravity. This also takes about 30-45 seconds. During this time it may look like the wakeboat is just driving around with ballast.

These new wakeboats are heavy in the water even with out ballast full. 5000 to 8000 pounds of boat dry weight. They have very deep V hulls that displace a ton of water. Even completely empty of ballast many of them are carrying 60-90 gallons of gas, lots of stereo equipment and many batteries, and often times anywhere between 6 and 15 people. They sit low in the water. At any speed less than on plane they throw a very large wake even without ballast. So I believe what you are seeing and experiencing as wakeboats driving around with loaded ballast is not what you think it is. Nobody that knows what they are doing is doing that.

These boats just do not make dainty little wakes like a flat bottom ski boat, a sleek bass boat, an aluminum fishing boat, or even a family runabout boat. They are built different with a different purpose..... to make waves that you can surf on without using a rope to pull you.

I know it does not sit well with some people. Not trying to justify it...... Just trying to explain.
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They don’t seem to be rough water boats regardless of ballast. We saw three sink last year in two trips(one managed to beach and we saw Sea Tow with it a day later). When they drop off plane the bow is very low in the water, with their large weight I suspect easy to stuff, overwhelming the engine and pumps. Our SeaRay Sundeck has less dead rise than I would like, but as long as I’m under some power and paying attention I can keep from green watering the bow. Last Memorial Day in the terrible weather we had to stop to tie down some stuff. Ended up having to get back on plane down wind then swing around once we had some speed. Violent storm, completely ate my formerly just loose steering pin, went from a little sloppy to a half turn of the wheel to make contact in 50 miles.
 
When I started hunting over one-half a century ago nothing much was said if a hunter took a vehicle off road to retrieve game. Over the years "idiots" abused that practice so much that it got to where you couldn't even hunt without someone driving up on you at your favorite spot you had walked into. Reasons varied for those regulations to be enforced, damaging land, running up and down stream banks causing erosion and pushing game needlessly.
The same things can be said for those large wakes, they damage canyon walls, cause damage to other peoples boats and harass campers tied up in narrow canyons.
I once was told that a boater came here to the same place in August each year and if I didn't like it I could leave. That attitude has become dominant in the last few years, society is changing, there is no longer regard for your fellowman, it is dog eat dog.
First come first serve should have no place on the lake. Just treat people/boaters with a little compassion and not hooray for me and to hell with you!! We all can enjoy the lake with just a little thought. LEARN THE RULES!!!
 
kilojuliett said:
I am an old school slalom skier. I am very picky and only go on smooth water. I grew up engaging in every kind of watersport fun and danger that a teenager could think of, but this was way before anyone even thought of a wake boat. So I can understand that people want to have fun. My question to the wakeboard boats is when these boats are NOT actively wakeboarding do they continue underway with all of the ballast onboard? I am at the lake an average of 5-6 weeks a year. My longterm observations of wakeboats indicates to me that many wake board boats often travel underway with all of the ballast onboard to improve the ride for their wakeboat and passengers aboard, especially when traveling through areas that have already been chopped up. This makes the conditions worse for other boats but no one is actually wakeboarding.
How easy / difficult is it for these boats to pump out and / or take on ballast water? How long does it take?
Is the carrying of ballast when not wakeboarding a topic that is ever discussed within the wakeboard community?
is this something that the wakeboard community could be educated on?
Click to expand...
Great question.
The extra ballast on the boat is very taxing and consumes lots of fuel. It only takes 3-5 minutes to empty the ballast. Well worth doing for the amount of fuel it saves. I don't think the wakeboarding community needs to be educated on this point because the physical circumstances alone almost forces them to empty the ballast if they want to go cruising speeds.
I can maybe see them keeping the ballast full if they are relocating for better water in a short distance. Otherwise, I would rather save the fuel.
 
Not a wake boat story, but a loud music story.

May 2020 and my first trip to Powell. Me and a buddy pull in to Iceberg Canyon and find a nice spot to spend the night. We get settled in and after a bit a young man wanders over from around the corner from where we had settled in.

Young man: Hey guys! We're right around the corner from you in a houseboat and have a couple other boats coming in. We may get a bit loud with the music and fireworks tonight but I just wanted to let you know in advance.

Wow! Bottom line, we never really heard them that night but, I was REALLY impressed that the young man made the effort to even come over to our site and let us know they had planned to have some festivities that night.

Kudos on him!!

Bottom line: We never really heard them (us drinking?) and it was a total non-issue.

There are some good kids out there!

Lake Powell May 2020-43.jpg
 
Desert Dory said:
Not a wake boat story, but a loud music story.

May 2020 and my first trip to Powell. Me and a buddy pull in to Iceberg Canyon and find a nice spot to spend the night. We get settled in and after a bit a young man wanders over from around the corner from where we had settled in.

Young man: Hey guys! We're right around the corner from you in a houseboat and have a couple other boats coming in. We may get a bit loud with the music and fireworks tonight but I just wanted to let you know in advance.

Wow! Bottom line, we never really heard them that night but, I was REALLY impressed that the young man made the effort to even come over to our site and let us know they had planned to have some festivities that night.

Kudos on him!!

Bottom line: We never really heard them (us drinking?) and it was a total non-issue.

There are some good kids out there!

View attachment 21751
Click to expand...
I've camped in that very spot. I bet a lot of others have too!
 
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