Gem Morris
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
When we were on the buoy we either tied the speedboat to the back swim deck or to the side of the houseboat
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Pin Anchoring
- Thread starter Tiihunter
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When we were on the buoy we either tied the speedboat to the back swim deck or to the side of the houseboat
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Powelldreamer
Well-Known Member
Let me clarify my position. I do not want to see mooring balls to ruin the beauty of the Lake Powell environment. I would much prefer to see mooring blocks placed below the surface. The lake level changes. As such, I do not want to see them during low water years either. They should be deployed for use then retrieved immediately after use. We wouldn't leave our anchors would we? We don't want pins left in, right? So why leave mooring balls on the surface or mooring blocks below a changing lake level?
Powder Hound
Active Member
Not for a million dollar plus boat.
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
I guess I don’t know why anyone would think that the atmosphere of the lake needs to change to allow for the new behemoth houseboats, wether talking mooring balls or pins? To me, the answer is something that would securely allow the houseboat to stay moored and not require permanent changes to the lake like pins and balls. And it’s up to the owners of each boat to figure out what that is for them.
Maybe we should be investing in those beach bags.....
Maybe we should be investing in those beach bags.....
Tracy Speer
Well-Known Member
We have not used pins or anchors in years, we use rock slings. Find a beach with a 20 ton boulder to the left and to the right, wrap the slings around the rocks, have a rear line go out at about a 45 degree angle , and a mid ship rope and front lines straight to a rock in front, I use 6 cargo straps that are about 25 feet long, put a loop in the anchor line about 15 feet from the loop on the sling and pull all the slack through, then ratchet the last foot or so, They are so tight on both sides you could tight rope walk on them. I understand if you are on a beach that is smooth sandstone and no big boulders, we’ll then maybe look for another beach that has some big boulders. Or one time I tied a couple lines together and went up over the hill to find a big rock. You can never have too much rope.
gznokes
Well-Known Member
Really like the idea of the cargo ratchets! I haven't looked into this, but it sound very simple and convenient. Have you ever had any concerns about the ratchet failing? I haven't looked into the tech specs on a good set.
Tracy Speer
Well-Known Member
We did have one of 70 mph micro burst, the anchor rope broke in the middle, the ratchet strap do not fail,
Make sure to get ones that are rated for 10,000 lbs,
The heavy duty 2 inch straps are good
Make sure to get ones that are rated for 10,000 lbs,
The heavy duty 2 inch straps are good
Michael Pyle
Well-Known Member
I know I will get roasted here but here it goes.
I think pinning when done right is a good thing. most if not all the spots in the south end of the lake for a houseboats have holes there and its easy to re use them. Fact is its safer to pin than not for larger boats.
We have been in 70+ mph side winds and our boat was fine with pins while a couple boats around us all went onto the beach doing 10's of thousands in damage and creating his risk situations for boaters trying to solve the problem during the storm.
I had seen somewhere that the Park service is going to designate some areas OK for pinning. The only problem with their plan is they want to limit the use to concessions holders. So we would have to pay someone to come do it. Thats not right or fair to make private people pay someone to do things that we can do. If they create a certification process that would be better.
I know its frustrating for many of you guys but large boats are here to stay and pins are the only way to keep them safe. I would suggest putting your efforts into helping make it the best it can be and educate. But to say nobody should do it and just complain does not help. The Park service is not enforcing the rule as they know its necessary for larger boats.
Mike
I think pinning when done right is a good thing. most if not all the spots in the south end of the lake for a houseboats have holes there and its easy to re use them. Fact is its safer to pin than not for larger boats.
We have been in 70+ mph side winds and our boat was fine with pins while a couple boats around us all went onto the beach doing 10's of thousands in damage and creating his risk situations for boaters trying to solve the problem during the storm.
I had seen somewhere that the Park service is going to designate some areas OK for pinning. The only problem with their plan is they want to limit the use to concessions holders. So we would have to pay someone to come do it. Thats not right or fair to make private people pay someone to do things that we can do. If they create a certification process that would be better.
I know its frustrating for many of you guys but large boats are here to stay and pins are the only way to keep them safe. I would suggest putting your efforts into helping make it the best it can be and educate. But to say nobody should do it and just complain does not help. The Park service is not enforcing the rule as they know its necessary for larger boats.
Mike
Jackalope
Well-Known Member
You are incorrect on this, they are enforcing the rules on smaller houseboats or at least giving warnings.
The 3 HUGE houseboats around us were not even checked but 3 smaller ones were including us. We had anchors the rangers went and double checked them anyway.
There was a time years ago, I spoke to NPS about this issue and was told that it was OK as long as it was below the high water mark. That rule has changed or been corrected.
The spot I was in, I counted over 30 holes and I took pictures, what you see below is about 1/2 of what I found, in just one spot... I put my foot in each picture.
jelder
Member
Not sure if you are from California, but this really feels like a standard California response to any issue... I will do what I want everyone else needs to accommodate me ... or in your words "Large boats are here to stay and pins are the only way"... Don't get me wrong, I love the large boats, but I'm not foolish enough to buy into one because I understand the risks of the winds on Lake Powell.
I'm sure the generations after us will look up to and thank everyone with Large boats when the lake looks like the attached photo.
Attachments
Michael Pyle
Well-Known Member
Not from California Haha
Just a realist. I honestly do not think pins are going away. I agree there are a lot of holes, we use them all the time. I don't think we have drilled a new hole ever.
We have owned our boat 100% for years (just got 50% partners a couple months ago) and go to Powell a lot. each year we spend 4 weeks straight there along with many other weeks per year. We even spend thanksgiving on the lake. Been going since the mid 90's.
I have never had Park service ask us about pins, ever. We do not always use pins, I would say maybe 50% of the time we do and its only on one or 2 ropes, and again we re use holes that are there. We love being on the sand so we use sand anchors as much as possible.
I see a lot of boats using pins on the lake but somehow everyone here does not? interesting. Haha I am the only one dumb enough to say I do while others act like they are against them but do it.
Mike
Just a realist. I honestly do not think pins are going away. I agree there are a lot of holes, we use them all the time. I don't think we have drilled a new hole ever.
We have owned our boat 100% for years (just got 50% partners a couple months ago) and go to Powell a lot. each year we spend 4 weeks straight there along with many other weeks per year. We even spend thanksgiving on the lake. Been going since the mid 90's.
I have never had Park service ask us about pins, ever. We do not always use pins, I would say maybe 50% of the time we do and its only on one or 2 ropes, and again we re use holes that are there. We love being on the sand so we use sand anchors as much as possible.
I see a lot of boats using pins on the lake but somehow everyone here does not? interesting. Haha I am the only one dumb enough to say I do while others act like they are against them but do it.
Mike
Desert Dory
Active Member
Bottom line: Currently, pinning is illegal. You can try to justify it however you want but, currently, it is what it is, illegal.
Personally, I hope you get fined, along with a bunch of others.
Michael Pyle
Well-Known Member
I know it’s technically illegal. Clearly they are not enforcing the law. Just like selling weed is federally illegal but they are letting it go in the states that made it legal.
so yes the fact is it’s illegal and the fact is they are not enforcing it. I can literally go out any day and fine houseboats using pins right off the main channel.
if I was to pin and get a ticket I would pay it and try not to do it again. But until then I will do what’s safest for my boat while being the most responsible as I can. I said we do not make new holes. We use what’s there. We also have pulled out two bars that were stuck and left by others.
you can hate me all you want. We are responsible and respectful boaters. To be honest the judgement will just keep honest open guys like me off of this site. Then you can all just hate on everyone. Haha.
Mike
PS I bet there are no boat surfers here either? Haha everyone complains about the waves and I guarantee there are members here that do it. You can surf responsibly.
so yes the fact is it’s illegal and the fact is they are not enforcing it. I can literally go out any day and fine houseboats using pins right off the main channel.
if I was to pin and get a ticket I would pay it and try not to do it again. But until then I will do what’s safest for my boat while being the most responsible as I can. I said we do not make new holes. We use what’s there. We also have pulled out two bars that were stuck and left by others.
you can hate me all you want. We are responsible and respectful boaters. To be honest the judgement will just keep honest open guys like me off of this site. Then you can all just hate on everyone. Haha.
Mike
PS I bet there are no boat surfers here either? Haha everyone complains about the waves and I guarantee there are members here that do it. You can surf responsibly.
John P Funk
Escalante-Class Member
I guess you're going to have to define "responsible" for me. Not enforcing a regulation doesn't make it okay to do it. Our society has become one of justification("that rule doesn't apply to me"). You started by saying you expected to be "flamed", congratulations.
Michael Pyle
Well-Known Member
The Park Service has been clear that if you are in a spot that has holes you can use them. They do not want new holes or holes in certain areas. They are even working on a plan to change the law and allow concession permit holders to put boats on pins, legally.
they know that for the larger boats the pins are necessary.
for us we do a lot of what we think is responsible boating. We do not make new holes. We go into spots that are used often. We leave a beach better than we found it, we do not surf by boats on the beach, we help boaters in distress, monitor ch 16 and if we are close we go help, even if they can’t get their Gen to work, we help. I truly believe the lake is better for us being there.
Just because we use holes that are already there does not make us bad or irresponsible.
Mike
they know that for the larger boats the pins are necessary.
for us we do a lot of what we think is responsible boating. We do not make new holes. We go into spots that are used often. We leave a beach better than we found it, we do not surf by boats on the beach, we help boaters in distress, monitor ch 16 and if we are close we go help, even if they can’t get their Gen to work, we help. I truly believe the lake is better for us being there.
Just because we use holes that are already there does not make us bad or irresponsible.
Mike
JFRCalifornia
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Totally get that you are using only pre-existing holes, being helpful on the lake, trying to leave things better than when you arrived. All appreciated. I think the issue is one of perception to others, the example it sets, and how it appears to others on the lake who may not be as familiar with protocols, when they see a large houseboat pinned to the rock. They might reasonably think “I guess I can do that too, just need to make some holes.” They may not know those are pre-existing holes. Just a question of setting an example, especially for those less scrupulous boaters who feel enabled when they see something that confirms to them that it is “okay” to do...
A difficult issue to resolve, especially if NPS allows its own rules to slide...
A difficult issue to resolve, especially if NPS allows its own rules to slide...
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Michael Pyle
Well-Known Member
I agree it does create a mess and could for sure encourage people to do it in a way thats not limiting the impact. NPS was enforcing the rule two years ago and it did not go well for them. So they backed off and tried to come up with a solution. I hope D.Taylor can complete is formula to fill the holes that are there. He has been testing for some time to get the right formula but not sure if he gave up or is just waiting for NPS to approve it.
I am all for education and making sure its done right. I think the NPS is on the right track with offically allowing it in certain areas. But I disagree with the plan to only allow Concessions to do the pinning. I think they need a certificating like they do with the Quagga. No reason why a single owner like myself cant do it right.
Fact is allowing pinning in the right areas is better for the congestion and the lake. If you took all this coves out of use it would be a mess. I love the idea of the water bladder but its expensive and takes a very long time to set up. No way the beaching services will go thru that. And not sure it works on most rock coves where people pin as the rock is steep.
My point is you cant just put your head in the sand and act like its not happening and its not OK. Its happening and we need to be part of the solution to make it the best it can be.
Mike
I am all for education and making sure its done right. I think the NPS is on the right track with offically allowing it in certain areas. But I disagree with the plan to only allow Concessions to do the pinning. I think they need a certificating like they do with the Quagga. No reason why a single owner like myself cant do it right.
Fact is allowing pinning in the right areas is better for the congestion and the lake. If you took all this coves out of use it would be a mess. I love the idea of the water bladder but its expensive and takes a very long time to set up. No way the beaching services will go thru that. And not sure it works on most rock coves where people pin as the rock is steep.
My point is you cant just put your head in the sand and act like its not happening and its not OK. Its happening and we need to be part of the solution to make it the best it can be.
Mike
My view on pin holes has changed. It is not pins that have some bothered, it is the pinholes, two different things, like dogs and dog poop.
I am on the lake a lot and my team includes a little grandson and he has probably filled in more pin holes than any other single person at Powell and possibly even more than everybody reading this combined.
With me being his most interested fan to his low scientific process of filling in the holes, this experience has indirectly exposed me to and educated me on seeing hundreds of filled holes over weeks and months and years. Part of his hobby is also finding old holes that he has filled in on prior trips, a true Easter egg hunt.
Folks, I have a big surprise for you... pins are ok just like dogs, pin holes are ok too, just like dog poop, just clean up after yourself.
Filling in a pin hole with sand is like picking up a pile of dog poop, once it is refilled the hole is gone, it is kinda no longer there, sure bacteria from the poo is present but the visual is gone. All happy.
No need for epoxy or concrete, that is silly, just refill each hole with dry sand, leave a bit of a crown, pour a solo cup of water above the slope, step on it and slide your flip flop across the top to blend flat and you are good.
There seems to be perfect spots to drill a hole including anywhere along the uphill side of a small sloping lip or ridge where rain water will flow or pool during a rain storm. The sand will naturally refill these holes during rain storms and bury the holes forever. Any hole that has gone under a rising lake and filled with lake mud is virtually impossible to see even after after the lake drops.
This little boy has taken hundreds of photos of before and after filled holes. He can lay a hoopla hoop around most of his cured holes and you probably cannot quickly find the near impossible to see prior hole. Take the hoopla hoop away and my money is on him.
Next time you are on the beach grab a bucket of sand and a pal of water and fill in a few holes. Sure you probably did not drill them, but you probably did not poop all over the beach either and were ok cleaning that up.
On a side not, A pin anchored boat with tight lines is massively safer in wind and this saves lives and reduces pressure on the rangers. Is it right, lots of things are not right starting with not wearing a mask. There are bigger things to focus on then something that is so easily fixed.
Listen in on channel 16 on a windy night, nobody is freaking out about dragging a pin. I know of only 1 pinned boat that every broke loose and had life threatening issues. Any boat with loose lines is looking for trouble, even a pinned boat.
By the way, when your boat blows sideways in a big storm and a bunch of guys from a pinned boat at the edge of the sand rescue your butt with flashlights and a drill and pins you will be grateful. Regardless of your current view on pins you will let them drill, you will plug their cord into your boat, you will thank them and you will be very grateful. You will be comforted with an ultimate secure feeling and you will be happy the guys in the pinned boat had zero wind issues on their boat during the same wind storm were available to help you.
The next morning after a big wind storm you may see rangers drifting at wakes less speed next to the shoreline, they are not looking for lost inflatables or pinned boats folks, they are looking for bodies.
On a closing thought, the pinned group has also relieved the beach parking densities. Put all those pinned boats on the same tiny sandy beach as non pinners and guess what - no room for you. Next time you see a pinned boat give that man a thumbs up for thinning out the crowd on the sand as well as being able to help others when things go bad.
Next time you see a pin hole, fill it to the tippy top with sand, pour some water on it and then flatten it out with your flip flop. If you want extra points take a broom and sweep the rock around it to dust the same color sand on the wet spot. It really is this easy - it’s a miracle.
Folks, pins are here to stay. As long as the holes are below high watermark it is probably a very very very fuzzy argument and one that will get very expensive very quick for the nps if appeals are filed at distant cities at federal level by the ticketed party. The Park Service does not have the man power or the budget or the desire to double down and have their rangers at expensive hotels at appeal court levels. At the end of the day the rangers probably don’t care about dog poop, fireworks or pins as much as they care about drunk drivers and keeping you safe. Any ranger that has issued a pin ticket and gets dragged in front of a high priced litigator will never want to relive that experience again, getting pounded into the ground and pounded deeper and deeper and deeper is not as much fun as driving the patrol boat with wind in your hair.
Just add sand - problem solved.
I am on the lake a lot and my team includes a little grandson and he has probably filled in more pin holes than any other single person at Powell and possibly even more than everybody reading this combined.
With me being his most interested fan to his low scientific process of filling in the holes, this experience has indirectly exposed me to and educated me on seeing hundreds of filled holes over weeks and months and years. Part of his hobby is also finding old holes that he has filled in on prior trips, a true Easter egg hunt.
Folks, I have a big surprise for you... pins are ok just like dogs, pin holes are ok too, just like dog poop, just clean up after yourself.
Filling in a pin hole with sand is like picking up a pile of dog poop, once it is refilled the hole is gone, it is kinda no longer there, sure bacteria from the poo is present but the visual is gone. All happy.
No need for epoxy or concrete, that is silly, just refill each hole with dry sand, leave a bit of a crown, pour a solo cup of water above the slope, step on it and slide your flip flop across the top to blend flat and you are good.
There seems to be perfect spots to drill a hole including anywhere along the uphill side of a small sloping lip or ridge where rain water will flow or pool during a rain storm. The sand will naturally refill these holes during rain storms and bury the holes forever. Any hole that has gone under a rising lake and filled with lake mud is virtually impossible to see even after after the lake drops.
This little boy has taken hundreds of photos of before and after filled holes. He can lay a hoopla hoop around most of his cured holes and you probably cannot quickly find the near impossible to see prior hole. Take the hoopla hoop away and my money is on him.
Next time you are on the beach grab a bucket of sand and a pal of water and fill in a few holes. Sure you probably did not drill them, but you probably did not poop all over the beach either and were ok cleaning that up.
On a side not, A pin anchored boat with tight lines is massively safer in wind and this saves lives and reduces pressure on the rangers. Is it right, lots of things are not right starting with not wearing a mask. There are bigger things to focus on then something that is so easily fixed.
Listen in on channel 16 on a windy night, nobody is freaking out about dragging a pin. I know of only 1 pinned boat that every broke loose and had life threatening issues. Any boat with loose lines is looking for trouble, even a pinned boat.
By the way, when your boat blows sideways in a big storm and a bunch of guys from a pinned boat at the edge of the sand rescue your butt with flashlights and a drill and pins you will be grateful. Regardless of your current view on pins you will let them drill, you will plug their cord into your boat, you will thank them and you will be very grateful. You will be comforted with an ultimate secure feeling and you will be happy the guys in the pinned boat had zero wind issues on their boat during the same wind storm were available to help you.
The next morning after a big wind storm you may see rangers drifting at wakes less speed next to the shoreline, they are not looking for lost inflatables or pinned boats folks, they are looking for bodies.
On a closing thought, the pinned group has also relieved the beach parking densities. Put all those pinned boats on the same tiny sandy beach as non pinners and guess what - no room for you. Next time you see a pinned boat give that man a thumbs up for thinning out the crowd on the sand as well as being able to help others when things go bad.
Next time you see a pin hole, fill it to the tippy top with sand, pour some water on it and then flatten it out with your flip flop. If you want extra points take a broom and sweep the rock around it to dust the same color sand on the wet spot. It really is this easy - it’s a miracle.
Folks, pins are here to stay. As long as the holes are below high watermark it is probably a very very very fuzzy argument and one that will get very expensive very quick for the nps if appeals are filed at distant cities at federal level by the ticketed party. The Park Service does not have the man power or the budget or the desire to double down and have their rangers at expensive hotels at appeal court levels. At the end of the day the rangers probably don’t care about dog poop, fireworks or pins as much as they care about drunk drivers and keeping you safe. Any ranger that has issued a pin ticket and gets dragged in front of a high priced litigator will never want to relive that experience again, getting pounded into the ground and pounded deeper and deeper and deeper is not as much fun as driving the patrol boat with wind in your hair.
Just add sand - problem solved.
Jackalope
Well-Known Member
The Rangers that were out checking boats made it Very clear that you can not use old or new holes. If you use old holes then you help to erode them and make them bigger. I will say that I have not seen this erosion that they were talking about, if you look at the old holes that were drilled at Rainbow Marina, they look the same as they did 20 years ago to me.
However, I do understand the need to anchor your boat safely. And there may be a way to do this without the erosion (using old holes), adding a Delrin or plastic sleeve to the pin that is inserted into the sandstone.
I have put anchors in cracks and pounded them in a bit, what would be the difference if I use a pin in the crack instead of an anchor? I know it's how it looks, but the anchor would do more damage to the sandstone then the pin.
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