Past the peak and a post-mortem...

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The golf course issue is one that irks me. There was a bill put forth a couple of years ago that would have required golf courses to record and report their water consumption as part of efforts to reduce water consumption in the Great Salt Lake basin. The golf industry got the bill killed, stating that people wouldn't be able to put the water consumption in context. Most golf courses in Utah have multiple sources of water supply, typically being fed by canal companies in addition to receiving municipal or secondary irrigation sources. Some even have groundwater wells to supplement those resources. Three years ago when the drought in northern Utah was at its worst, all my neighbors and I were severely restricted in our use of secondary irrigation water, resulting in a lot of brown and spotty lawns, yet when I drove by the country club near our home, things were as green as ever, since they had priority water rights.

As far as I know, there is very limited use or recycled water at golf courses in Utah. I know of three definite users of recycled wastewater on golf courses, but there are likely others on a limited basis. Utah water law limits the ability for reuse to be viable since reuse water is owned by the original provider of water rather than whoever makes it clean enough for reuse, making the only viable reuse applications those completed by cities.

St. George is embarking on a major reuse program in order to reduce their need for new water resources and has basically aligned Washington County WCD, as well as all the other purveyors of water and wastewater treatment (St. George, Ash Creek, etc) to make it workable. This will take some time, but is likely to result in massive improvements in per capita water consumption in Washington County. The whole area has a lot of work to do though and there are some problems with the reservoir systems in Washington County that result in inherent water inefficiency there due to system losses.

Regarding secondary irrigation systems, I have lived in Davis County most of my life, which has had secondary irrigation since the advent of Weber Basin WCD. The canals that used to run through the fields and orchards were all replaced with pressurized delivery when the fields were turned into homes and people didn't want canals and flood irrigation. The other areas followed suit and now there are a smattering of canal companies turned into pressurized irrigation districts (Benchland Water, Davis-Weber Canal Company, Haight's Creek, Deuel Creek, etc.). These became a convenient way to reduce cost of water delivery and treatment since we didn't have to have treated water going on grass. However, they were unmetered and it has been easy for people to over-water. About 10 years ago, Weber Basin piloted addition of flow meters to secondary irrigation in my neighborhood. They were able to track usage and if you used more than they expected, they would provide you with a new sprinkler timer along with guidance on how to set it up to reduce consumption. This worked very well and they saw significant reductions in water consumption in my area. They were also able to provide instantaneous feedback on excessive consumption and leaks along with weekly tracking of use during the drought when there were actual limitations on allowable volumes, preventing the need to use preset days for allowable water use. The success of the program has led the state to require all secondary systems to require flow meters in the future. There is a timeline associated with implementation. Ideally, this reduces irrigation demand for home use.

As noted though, the elephant of water usage continues to be agriculture. An article in the SL Tribune recently noted that 75% of water consumption in the state is supporting agriculture, which provides 0.5% of the GDP. The investment in water in the past has subsidized agricultural consumption in the present. Continuing to support agricultural water consumption in marginal quality areas will guarantee failure in the future. I drove through Imperial Valley about 10 years ago and was shocked by the farms I saw, featuring marginal quality soils, poor quality crops, and a ton of water consumption. Of course, I didn't do a complete survey of the area, so this was just my impression, but it seemed unsustainable to me. Looking at big lakes in the desert also looks unsustainable though, so we have to decide how and where to use our water. If the upper basin wants to keep water in Lake Powell, it comes at a loss of 400,000 acre-feet/year. If the lower basin wants water in Lake Mead, it comes at a cost of at least 600,000 acre-feet/year. These water costs have not been accounted for in the CRC, so that needs to get fixed and included as part of the allocations for users. We need to be using water where it is most valuable though. If we completely end agricultural usage it would have devastating impacts on those communities and to the downwind airshed though.
 
When those reservoirs have to be drawn down, where does the water go? Is that the water that used to go the Great Salt Lake? But instead the lake is receding?

Depending on the drainage area, yes, some of it likely ends up at the GSL. Not a bad outcome, but after release from managed reservoirs and streams the water is no longer within the "system" where it can be used for household purposes. Once on it's way to natural basins like Utah Lake and/or GSL, the remaining uses are generally industrial / agricultural.
 
There still remains huge potential for using water from any saline lake if you have plenty of sunshine (solar energy to run pumps for RO water) you can do some desalinization to concentrate the minerals even further before drying it down for packaging and/or shipping. The fresh water can partially be used and the rest returned to the lake itself to reduce salinity over the longer term (or at least to offset what flows in).

If you take the long term approaches you can make a big difference over time.
 
I think it’s much cheaper to reclaim wastewater than desalinate. Desalination is only for culinary purposes. Much much cheaper to just grow your food somewhere there is already fresh water. Fusion power may change this in the distant future.
 
I think it’s much cheaper to reclaim wastewater than desalinate. Desalination is only for culinary purposes. Much much cheaper to just grow your food somewhere there is already fresh water. Fusion power may change this in the distant future.
Been hearing this song for more than 50 years, same for super conductivity. Maybe AI will get it done.
 
What subsidies?
You were replying to the person who said "beef production is subsidized to the moon and back, so that reality gets hidden from Joe Public.". You said "It was never hidden from Joe Public".

So your implication is that Joe Public is aware of how much beef production is subsidized by the government. I am questioning that implication. I don't think the average person has any idea how much beef is subsidized. I don't know. I am sure there are subsidies. But I don't know what the magnitude of those is on the retail price of beef.
 
You were replying to the person who said "beef production is subsidized to the moon and back, so that reality gets hidden from Joe Public.". You said "It was never hidden from Joe Public".

So your implication is that Joe Public is aware of how much beef production is subsidized by the government. I am questioning that implication. I don't think the average person has any idea how much beef is subsidized. I don't know. I am sure there are subsidies. But I don't know what the magnitude of those is on the retail price of beef.
Just asking to see what your idea of subsidies in Imperial Valley are. So far it seems you were just generalizing. They dont get free water and your property taxes idea is wrong too.

Imperial County's effective property tax rate is 1.13%, which is above the national median property tax rate of 1.02%. This places Imperial County's rate slightly higher than the national average. Within the county, Niland has the highest median property tax rate at 3.31%, while Westmorland has the lowest at 1.09%.
 
Just asking to see what your idea of subsidies in Imperial Valley are. So far it seems you were just generalizing. They dont get free water and your property taxes idea is wrong too.

Imperial County's effective property tax rate is 1.13%, which is above the national median property tax rate of 1.02%. This places Imperial County's rate slightly higher than the national average. Within the county, Niland has the highest median property tax rate at 3.31%, while Westmorland has the lowest at 1.09%.
I think you replied to the wrong person. I didn't say anything about free water or property taxes.
 
My reply concerned Utah subsidies. As far as how much alfalfa farmers pay for their water, it’s orders of magnitude less than what residential users pay. Thus the rules that exist about selling water rights. If farms payed the same property taxes as cabins and houses there would probably be a lot less farms and a lot more cabins and houses. It’s a policy choice made by legislators. Just like pricing water depending on its use.
 

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I think it’s much cheaper to reclaim wastewater than desalinate. Desalination is only for culinary purposes. Much much cheaper to just grow your food somewhere there is already fresh water. Fusion power may change this in the distant future.

Certainly it is much easier to reclaim fresh water from wastewater but in a very arid environment with a salty lake (the context I was talking about) where there is already extraction of minerals from the salty water going on via evaporative ponds - why are they wasting all that water via evaporation if they can reclaim some or all of it via RO filtering? Any portion of that freshwater returned to the lake would improve the too high minerals issue which is trouble for the ecosystem. More fresh water for the lakes is the biggest issue outstanding.
 
Certainly it is much easier to reclaim fresh water from wastewater but in a very arid environment with a salty lake (the context I was talking about) where there is already extraction of minerals from the salty water going on via evaporative ponds - why are they wasting all that water via evaporation if they can reclaim some or all of it via RO filtering? Any portion of that freshwater returned to the lake would improve the too high minerals issue which is trouble for the ecosystem. More fresh water for the lakes is the biggest issue outstanding.
I'm not sure what you are referring to. Is there a specific lake where this is happening that I can research further?
 
Just FYI, there are practical limits to reverse osmosis due to declining osmotic potential at higher salinity values. There are other tricks in the bag (forward osmosis, thermal evaporation) but the more saline you get, the more useless the water becomes. Once water hits the Great Salt Lake and other highly saline lakes, it is no longer a good resource for any beneficial use under agricultural or consumptive system for all intents and purposes, though it has tremendous use in the lake for recreation, wildlife, mineral extraction, etc.
 
Just FYI, there are practical limits to reverse osmosis due to declining osmotic potential at higher salinity values. There are other tricks in the bag (forward osmosis, thermal evaporation) but the more saline you get, the more useless the water becomes. Once water hits the Great Salt Lake and other highly saline lakes, it is no longer a good resource for any beneficial use under agricultural or consumptive system for all intents and purposes, though it has tremendous use in the lake for recreation, wildlife, mineral extraction, etc.

I don't know the specifics of RO but I thought that membranes are selectively letting water molecules through while rejecting every thing else that is larger? The pressure needed to get the water through the whole system and the amount of time it takes are what seem to me to be the issues, not that it isn't possible. If the energy is mostly free via the sunlight and your fixed costs aren't too bad on setting it up perhaps it may eventually be useful enough. Practical may be something that some people may think is quite different than a very thirsty small town that is running out of other options. I may not see it in my lifetime but who knows? :) The lakes themselves may also be running out of options (The Salton Sea is beyond ecological collapse stage already IMO).

Also people need to understand that for these lakes they need more fresh water and if people are reclaiming water that used to flow into the lake then they are going to be contributing to even further declines in the water level (which exposes more sediments to the winds).
 
I don't know the specifics of RO but I thought that membranes are selectively letting water molecules through while rejecting every thing else that is larger? The pressure needed to get the water through the whole system and the amount of time it takes are what seem to me to be the issues, not that it isn't possible. If the energy is mostly free via the sunlight and your fixed costs aren't too bad on setting it up perhaps it may eventually be useful enough. Practical may be something that some people may think is quite different than a very thirsty small town that is running out of other options. I may not see it in my lifetime but who knows? :) The lakes themselves may also be running out of options (The Salton Sea is beyond ecological collapse stage already IMO).

Also people need to understand that for these lakes they need more fresh water and if people are reclaiming water that used to flow into the lake then they are going to be contributing to even further declines in the water level (which exposes more sediments to the winds).
There is a point at which the salts hold onto the water too tightly and the pressure required begins to exceed the structural integrity of the membrane itself. No amount of time will allow you to achieve the separation required. You can run a distillation unit of of solar, but thermal distillation becomes more and more expensive for the water recovered and just doesn't make sense since you have to use materials like titanium. Seawater is below the limits of RO though so it is a potentially endless source of water with good desalination technology. Since the Salton Sea is below sea level, it would make a decent repository for brine generated from RO systems used to feed agricultural systems in the Imperial Valley. Deciding if the money for infrastructure is worth the crops produced is really the big question.
 
There is a point at which the salts hold onto the water too tightly and the pressure required begins to exceed the structural integrity of the membrane itself. No amount of time will allow you to achieve the separation required. You can run a distillation unit of of solar, but thermal distillation becomes more and more expensive for the water recovered and just doesn't make sense since you have to use materials like titanium. Seawater is below the limits of RO though so it is a potentially endless source of water with good desalination technology. Since the Salton Sea is below sea level, it would make a decent repository for brine generated from RO systems used to feed agricultural systems in the Imperial Valley. Deciding if the money for infrastructure is worth the crops produced is really the big question.
So if I'm reading this right,,, your suggesting that desalinating the ocean water for fresh water in So Cal,,,, the salt brine residual, is to be dumped in the Salton Sea?
 
So if I'm reading this right,,, your suggesting that desalinating the ocean water for fresh water in So Cal,,,, the salt brine residual, is to be dumped in the Salton Sea?
No. That is not what is happening. Brine residual for coastal areas of Southern California is being discharged back into the ocean. I'm saying if you wanted to deliver seawater to Imperial Valley for use in agriculture, you could take the brine reject and deliver it to the Salton Sea. It would turn it into a hyper saline lake, but that is its fate eventually anyway. It would help resolve the issues associated with dust along the lake as well.
 
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