Dorado
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Pretty sure any kind of cost benefit analysis would show that would be spending way more money than it would generate. Especially with the uncertainty with lake levels…
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NPS Public Comment on North End Ramps
- Thread starter nzaugg
- Start date
Phil Lyman had proposed a bridge between Bullfrog and Halls Crossing during the Utah legislative session a couple of years ago, but the proposal did not get approved. There would probably be very little additional through traffic because the route is just a longer bypass of the Hite area along UT-95. Truckers would probably like to avoid the grades going by the Henry Mountains.
Regarding power lines from more distant generating stations, they would depend on there being enough demand to make the power cost-competitive with the local generators at Halls and Bullfrog. Solar with pumped storage or battery might work well in that climate.
The Cal Black Memorial Airport was built in the early 1990s to help drive economic development in the Halls Crossing area. I recall it being hyped as creating a new Page North/St. George opportunity. Perhaps it could still happen in that area. I'm always amazed at how much dryland recreation occurs in the San Rafael Swell, Goblin Valley, and around Moab compared to how little occurs around Hite, Ticaboo, Bullfrog, and Halls Crossing.
I believe this has been on many people's radars since the dam was created. I think that things were originally moving in the right direction with the lake- marinas were getting put in, slips were put on the water, new houseboats were being created, etc. People loved the Bullfrog and Halls area but there was always a major problem from the concessionaire. They were/are supposed to be providing mechanics services, parts stores, better hospitality, heck even answering the phone would be nice but Aramark has never provided those services. Offshore marina (in Ticaboo) has also really struggled providing those services til in recent years when it was bought out. I still think they have a lot of work to do, but services have been 'better' than years past. In the last 20 years, I've seen dozens of friends and family leave their boats on the North end to find new boats on the South End. The services there are exceptionally better- there is competition, parts stores, restaurants, etc. which in so many ways can make your 'experience' better. This is a huge reason why people are leaving and a big reason why I believe bigger things have never happened around Halls Crossing/Bullfrog. I've chose to stay on the North end of the lake due to the fact that its a much prettier area despite all these setbacks.
With all that being said, when North Lake Powell marine (Offshore Marina) was bought out several years ago, the plans were for the new ownership to create more of a year round resort style accommodations. I think they were hoping to basically create a mini Moab. Apart from Marina services, they have tried to enhance the hotel, added an RV park, increased their rental fleet to include ATV rentals, started doing ATV tours, etc. IMO they still have a long way to go but that is their intentions and I would love to see them succeed. As we all know, Ticaboo isn't the easiest place to run a business. Power has always been a major issue and they have talked for years about how to make electricity costs more affordable. I believe the costs they've been quoted to run transmission lines from Hanksville to Ticaboo are around $1M/mile so a 50 mile run would cost $50M. No one is willing to pay that. Some good news though- over the last couple years, the Ticaboo Utility Improvement District (TUID) has been working with many companies to develop a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) where they buy renewable energy from another company rather than using their generators around the clock. They've had several fall through but most recently they have been working to sign an agreement with a Utah based company called Torus to provide power to Ticaboo. Torus would bring in Solar Panels and Batteries and provide power to Ticaboo City which would drastically reduce costs for the residents and businesses. They are estimating that this will reduce their generator run time by 84%. This would be a huge win for Ticaboo and I believe create some major opportunities for growth there especially if Bullfrog ever decides to jump on this same bandwagon.
With that being said, Ticaboo also recently lost a massive amount of their water rights due to not getting the paperwork filed to renew those rights on time. They used to have water rights to support expansion, but with the loss of these rights it will make it very difficult and or expensive for any future businesses to get the water that they need. Compound that with the lower water levels at Lake Powell and I don't know what is going to happen.
These are all issues that Bullfrog and Halls Crossing suffer from as well. I think we are more capable of doing big things than we have ever been in history but I think there is way to much red tape that inflates the cost making it infeasible or impossible. Ultimately the Colorado River Abundance Act that the BRC is working on sidesteps much of the regulations and provides billions of dollars to Lake Powell which a large portion of that would be used to enhance recreation on the Lake. Right now, I wholeheartedly believe that this bill is the greatest (and maybe only) chance we have at saving recreation on the lake and allowing those 'big' things to happen. I'm anxious to see how things play out and where we are at 1, 2, 5, 10 and 50 years from today.
Cimarron16
Active Member
There needs to be an economic reason for people to move families there besides tourism. Largest employer in Farmington is San Juan Regional, I am guessing the largest employer in Durango is Mercy. Largest employer in Cortez is the school district. Monticello and Blanding are the same. From experience, unless it's agriculture or the fed -- if you're willing to weather fed shenanigans, holding a steady career in small southwestern towns is EXTREMELY difficult and drives many families out before they ever get settled. We can do big things, but unless those big things are passive, the Colorado Plateau has very little in the way of economic drivers.
What about Moab? Isn't that almost entirely Driven by tourism?
Marina Bum
Escalante-Class Member
I grew up in Rural Arizona. Now my sleepy little town is bustling with tourism and becoming over ran with fleeing California’s IMO. I’m all about wild out of the way places since I cherish them, enjoy them while they last. I think that soon there will be none of them left with Amazon, Star link and people fleeing urban areas.
I love the isolation and peace those places still offer. That’s one reason I like Page and Lake Powell, I can get away from people. It’s not that I don’t like people I just I like them better at a slower more real pace. If you didn’t grow up rural you might not understand the blessing of boredom but sometimes it’s the best part of small and out of the way places.
I love the isolation and peace those places still offer. That’s one reason I like Page and Lake Powell, I can get away from people. It’s not that I don’t like people I just I like them better at a slower more real pace. If you didn’t grow up rural you might not understand the blessing of boredom but sometimes it’s the best part of small and out of the way places.
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Marina Bum
Escalante-Class Member
I think I get what you are saying but when I think about the difference between a 60 foot boat and a 120 foot one on a 125 mile long lake they don’t seem to be all that different. I think about a lot of new obstructions popping up as boogie men but maybe we’ve always had different obstructions at different levels. At one level they are a nuisance just under the water level and at another they are formations. A 16 foot boats drive needs
to avoid obstructions same as a 120 foot one does, just the way I see it, I could be wrong, I’ve been wrong before.
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JFRCalifornia
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Very interesting discussion.
My own take on this is that I tend to agree with the consensus view so far on this issue. There's just not enough of a draw to make a bridge between Bullfrog and Halls feasible (nor will there ever be), and just as importantly, Route 95 is a more direct way to cross southeastern Utah. If you're not on a beaten path, you've already got two strikes against you. No matter how shiny the bridge might be, unless you are intending to go to Bullfrog or Halls, there would be next to zero pass-by traffic on such a route. That's way different than, say, Moab, which is on a long-established regional route between I-70 and I-40. Moab, for its part, not only has the advantage of two adjacent national parks and the Colorado River, it had a baseline reason to exist in agriculture and mining. Also interesting that as crowded as Moab gets today, its permanent population of about 5,000 is largely unchanged since 1960--it had a baseline reason to exist other than tourism. It's the modern tourist infrastructure that has transformed it...and yet, the baseline population still remains at about 5,000.
You might ask, why couldn't the same thing happen in Bullfrog? It's incredibly difficult to start a town from scratch if its only purpose to exist is niche tourism. The cost of making a city grow from nothing is incredibly high, and extremely difficult to create the fabric that makes a city--public services, schools, grocery stores, support services, consumer goods, social institutions, churches, etc. Plus the extension of all the utility infrastructure. You really need a stable primary industry or two to drive growth and stabilize a population. That could be manufacturing, agriculture, or even government for that matter. Bullfrog/Halls would likely never have any of those things.
So then you might say, what about Page? That place grew out of nothing. Yes, but Page is a unique cat. It had a giant purpose--it was conceived as a massive glorified construction base. Page was literally called "Government Camp" at first, and administered by the USBR in its earliest days. It eventually transformed into being a city, but it took 6-7 years of constant construction--roads, the bridge, the planned city, the dam itself--and then the operation of that dam to to stabilize it and keep it alive. Page also had a built-in source of water and power thanks to the dam. It's instructive to see that Page's 1960 population of about 3,000 was sliced in half by 1970, as all those construction jobs disappeared. The population stabilized at only 1,500 by the end of the 1960s, even though it had a pretty solid foundational base of jobs related to the dam, lake tourism, government, and support services. It took the Navajo power plant built in the early 1970s to boost Page's base population to more like 5,000. The population has slowly climbed to be closer to 7,500 today as publicity (especially via social media) has created the demand for additional tourist-related support services. Is that a good thing? Debatable, depending on whom you ask.
Page was also greatly helped by its advantageous location as a transportation shortcut between Kanab and points east, a much more direct route for regional trucks than using the old slower route 89 (now 89A) over Navajo Bridge at Marble Canyon.
Is either the Moab or Page story remotely possible to replicate at Bullfrog/Halls? I don't think so.
It's also instructive to remember that in 1972, there was once a serious proposal to construct a bridge over the Escalante River in the vicinity of Coyote Gulch to link the town of Escalante and Bullfrog via an improved Hole-in-the-Rock Road. It was supported by some in Escalante who felt they needed some sort of economic boost that such a road link would provide. Of course it never happened. But imagine how it would have fundamentally changed the dynamic of the canyons along Hole in the Rock Road, and opened an industrialized tourism valve between Lake Powell and Escalante. We can debate whether or not that would have been a good thing, but its hard to argue that the remote character of the Escalante backcountry is a unique and irreplaceable public resource that would have been permanently altered...
Shredhook
Well-Known Member
I believe that I70 is a big part of how busy Moab is. Without it being so close I dont think it would be as busy.
Rainbowbridge
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Great thread, great food for thought....on many levels....
Regarding bridges, Makes you realize how since antiquity they really facilitated a couple of tents becoming towns. We wouldn't have a dam or Page or Wahweap if it wasn't for that beautiful steel arch bridge, IMHO.
On a more somber note, you can see why they have always been high priority military targets......
Regarding bridges, Makes you realize how since antiquity they really facilitated a couple of tents becoming towns. We wouldn't have a dam or Page or Wahweap if it wasn't for that beautiful steel arch bridge, IMHO.On a more somber note, you can see why they have always been high priority military targets......
Would a data center be enough to draw a big group of people to Bullfrog? Kind of joking but kind of being serious. A Salt Lake City based company called Altris has posted on their project page that they have one in the works. Not sure what this all means...
Here's the link to their projects page and what it shows they are doing...
altris.eco
Nestled on 7,000 acres overlooking the crystal waters of Lake Powell, this master-planned green community is redefining sustainable living in the American Southwest. Powered by renewable utilities and off-grid infrastructure, North Lake Powell blends residential neighborhoods, boutique hospitality, and adventure tourism into a single, self-sustaining ecosystem. The project revitalizes a long-neglected region by bringing clean power, workforce housing, and year-round recreation to one of the nation’s most breathtaking landscapes. From solar-driven energy and waste-to-water innovation to wellness-focused resorts and glamping retreats, North Lake Powell stands as a model for how modern development can thrive in harmony with nature.
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Altris was originally working with TUID to secure the PPA that I previously mentioned but if I remember right they got cold feet when there were issues with water rights and TUID ended up going back to Torus and securing a contract with them instead. Torus is currently in the engineering phase and should have construction completed at Ticaboo this summer. Torus intends to construct, own, operate, maintain, and secure an energy storage and generation project (“Project”) consisting of 1,080 kWh of total storage capacity, 1 Nova Spin, 530 kW of solar generation, all ancillary equipment and cabling needed to deliver electrical power (“Energy”) to the TUID grid all to supply the project annual output of 565MWh. This contract is good for 20 years.
I'm wondering if North Lake Powell Marine (Offshore) may be working with Altris on a separate project for the Data Center which would ultimately give them access to more power generation for their future plans.
Here's the link to their projects page and what it shows they are doing...
Our Projects - Altris
altris.eco
NLP
North Lake Powell Data Center, Renewable Power Plant, Development ProjectNestled on 7,000 acres overlooking the crystal waters of Lake Powell, this master-planned green community is redefining sustainable living in the American Southwest. Powered by renewable utilities and off-grid infrastructure, North Lake Powell blends residential neighborhoods, boutique hospitality, and adventure tourism into a single, self-sustaining ecosystem. The project revitalizes a long-neglected region by bringing clean power, workforce housing, and year-round recreation to one of the nation’s most breathtaking landscapes. From solar-driven energy and waste-to-water innovation to wellness-focused resorts and glamping retreats, North Lake Powell stands as a model for how modern development can thrive in harmony with nature.
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Altris was originally working with TUID to secure the PPA that I previously mentioned but if I remember right they got cold feet when there were issues with water rights and TUID ended up going back to Torus and securing a contract with them instead. Torus is currently in the engineering phase and should have construction completed at Ticaboo this summer. Torus intends to construct, own, operate, maintain, and secure an energy storage and generation project (“Project”) consisting of 1,080 kWh of total storage capacity, 1 Nova Spin, 530 kW of solar generation, all ancillary equipment and cabling needed to deliver electrical power (“Energy”) to the TUID grid all to supply the project annual output of 565MWh. This contract is good for 20 years.
I'm wondering if North Lake Powell Marine (Offshore) may be working with Altris on a separate project for the Data Center which would ultimately give them access to more power generation for their future plans.
JFRCalifornia
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Of course, before coming up with economic development ideas for one of the most remote and unsettled regions in the country, we've got to remember that this is all in the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area. The GCNRA is the mechanism that protects and promotes both recreational activities and environmental resources. The idea of building data centers or any other city-like economic development activities is basically inconsistent with the intent of the GCNRA...Would a data center be enough to draw a big group of people to Bullfrog? Kind of joking but kind of being serious. A Salt Lake City based company called Altris has posted on their project page that they have one in the works. Not sure what this all means...
Here's the link to their projects page and what it shows they are doing...
Our Projects - Altris
NLP
North Lake Powell Data Center, Renewable Power Plant, Development Project
Nestled on 7,000 acres overlooking the crystal waters of Lake Powell, this master-planned green community is redefining sustainable living in the American Southwest. Powered by renewable utilities and off-grid infrastructure, North Lake Powell blends residential neighborhoods, boutique hospitality, and adventure tourism into a single, self-sustaining ecosystem. The project revitalizes a long-neglected region by bringing clean power, workforce housing, and year-round recreation to one of the nation’s most breathtaking landscapes. From solar-driven energy and waste-to-water innovation to wellness-focused resorts and glamping retreats, North Lake Powell stands as a model for how modern development can thrive in harmony with nature.
-------------------------
Altris was originally working with TUID to secure the PPA that I previously mentioned but if I remember right they got cold feet when there were issues with water rights and TUID ended up going back to Torus and securing a contract with them instead. Torus is currently in the engineering phase and should have construction completed at Ticaboo this summer. Torus intends to construct, own, operate, maintain, and secure an energy storage and generation project (“Project”) consisting of 1,080 kWh of total storage capacity, 1 Nova Spin, 530 kW of solar generation, all ancillary equipment and cabling needed to deliver electrical power (“Energy”) to the TUID grid all to supply the project annual output of 565MWh. This contract is good for 20 years.
I'm wondering if North Lake Powell Marine (Offshore) may be working with Altris on a separate project for the Data Center which would ultimately give them access to more power generation for their future plans.
I don't want to get into the weeds to much on this one but it looks like it's Trust Lands where they are 'considering' the data center and not the National Recreation area so I believes this creates a separation? Looks like this was discussed at a Trust Lands Board of Trustees meeting last June. See page 13 action item 10g- https://www.utah.gov/pmn/files/1313847.pdf
Cimarron16
Active Member
This, 80-85 down the interstate, pop into Moab for the day/weekend, amenities, medical, good restaurants, and a town and infrastructure that was already there. Bullfrog and Halls are a little 'outposty.' Without the lake being there, UT95 would have literally no traffic. Coming back to edit this. The section from Blanding to Natural Bridges through Comb Ridge is one of my favorite drives. Hauling any load on that though consistently would get old fast.
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RichieW13
Well-Known Member
I think once a datacenter is complete, it only employs a dozen or two employees in the long term.Would a data center be enough to draw a big group of people to Bullfrog? Kind of joking but kind of being serious. A Salt Lake City based company called Altris has posted on their project page that they have one in the works. Not sure what this all means...
Here's the link to their projects page and what it shows they are doing...
Our Projects - Altris
NLP
North Lake Powell Data Center, Renewable Power Plant, Development Project
Nestled on 7,000 acres overlooking the crystal waters of Lake Powell, this master-planned green community is redefining sustainable living in the American Southwest. Powered by renewable utilities and off-grid infrastructure, North Lake Powell blends residential neighborhoods, boutique hospitality, and adventure tourism into a single, self-sustaining ecosystem. The project revitalizes a long-neglected region by bringing clean power, workforce housing, and year-round recreation to one of the nation’s most breathtaking landscapes. From solar-driven energy and waste-to-water innovation to wellness-focused resorts and glamping retreats, North Lake Powell stands as a model for how modern development can thrive in harmony with nature.
-------------------------
Altris was originally working with TUID to secure the PPA that I previously mentioned but if I remember right they got cold feet when there were issues with water rights and TUID ended up going back to Torus and securing a contract with them instead. Torus is currently in the engineering phase and should have construction completed at Ticaboo this summer. Torus intends to construct, own, operate, maintain, and secure an energy storage and generation project (“Project”) consisting of 1,080 kWh of total storage capacity, 1 Nova Spin, 530 kW of solar generation, all ancillary equipment and cabling needed to deliver electrical power (“Energy”) to the TUID grid all to supply the project annual output of 565MWh. This contract is good for 20 years.
I'm wondering if North Lake Powell Marine (Offshore) may be working with Altris on a separate project for the Data Center which would ultimately give them access to more power generation for their future plans.
nzaugg
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Just one note. Aramark owns no infrastructure anymore. It is all owned by NPS and Aramark is now a user of the facilities. Aramark and NPS have a fund that builds up as a percentage of revenue that they jointly agree to release when project needs dictate.
nzaugg
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Uranium mines provided Moab with decades of growth. There was a lot of boom/bust there though. The shift to promoting tourism fixed their growth curve and has been far more sustainable over the past 20 years.
nzaugg
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Depends on the size of the data center. I know of one that will have over 1,000 employees long term at the completion of construction that is currently involving over 7,000 people and will last perhaps 5-10 years.
Right now the scammers are out with respect to data centers. There are three things to look for in a data center development: access to power, water, and data pipelines. NLP has none of the above. They have added the data center aspect to this project to try to suck up money.
That Utah SITLA property sitting at the intersection of the Burr Trail with UT-276 is valuable property if conditions are right since it lies in the 10-mile economic exclusivity zone (something GCNRA needs to eliminate in the future under a rebid of the vendor contract). It would make much more sense to encourage the kind of development the state was hoping for 10 years ago when they issued a RFP for a "lifestyle development" with stores and residences.
It would be in the best interest of the State of Utah to fund a long term loan/grant to bring power lines to Bullfrog and Hall's Crossing to allow development to progress for the area. Interconnecting with Garkane Energy and getting repayment on a 50-year basis will reduce power costs for the area and improve reliability. Currently, Ticaboo Power and Water charges $75/month just to have service turned on and then another $0.55/kWh at their lowest tier of usage with the highest tier running to $400/month with a $0.34/kWh rate. This is too high for normal commercial entities to consider. Development won't happen in a reasonable way until reasonable power comes to the area.
Marina Bum
Escalante-Class Member
I didn’t realize that had changed, my friends at Aramark seem to be unaware of that change too. Im
Not saying you aren’t correct just that the employees still think they bear the costs of and own and maintain the docks themselves.
It’s my understanding that Aramark has not been paying their percentage of revenues for years, that Park Service has been letting them skate, that they don’t have a multi year deal right now, that PS has not put it out for bid and that they are in noncompliance right now. I wonder how large a percentage of the non existent shared revenues have been building up? Am I mistaken about that?
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Marina Bum
Escalante-Class Member
I’d hate to see any kind of highway near say Hole in the Rock. It would ruin it IMO, that’s all I need to see is dozens of foreign tourists hiking down while Im anchored there trying to get my isolation on.
There are some places that are just not on the map as a place to or from anywhere, “out of the way places.” We have a few in Arizona and time has stood mostly still there. Towns like Duncan or St Johns come to mind and I think it’s their geography that holds them back. Bullfrog is the same way I think, you have to go there on purpose.