birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Do you mean because of government money? Most Navajo's I know work for a living but I'm interested in your viewpoint.
Navajo Generating Station shut down.
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I believe the current Model 3 run is for Europe. I too have seen a lot of truckloads of them on I-40 heading east with European size license plate holders on the rear. They must be taking them to a port in Texas or on the east coast instead of shipping them from the bay area and through the Panama Canal..
RE the Navajo Generating Station closing down, I heard it employs 600 people locally with well-paying jobs - that's about 8% of the Page population if true. That would be like SLC losing 100,000 jobs overnight (guestimate) or Phoenix losing 200,000. Its closing will impact the entire city and surrounding area significantly for many years to come. Sadly.
And the plan is to completely remove the plant, so it's not just going to be mothballed until coal energy is useful again.
I hope those impacted find alternative employment either in Page or elsewhere. Working for a living is good for the soul, both physically and mentally.
And the plan is to completely remove the plant, so it's not just going to be mothballed until coal energy is useful again.
I hope those impacted find alternative employment either in Page or elsewhere. Working for a living is good for the soul, both physically and mentally.
Fursniper
Well-Known Member
My comment was in response to proceeds from a casino benefiting the tribe and nothing in return. Indian reservations have a socialist government. There is no private land on the rez, nobody owns their house, and the citizens are at the mercy of what the tribe will allow them to have. If a hotel/casino was built at Antelope Point, it could employ many Navajos to help offset the loss of jobs from the power plant and give them more pocket money. How the profits from a motel/casino would benefit the tribe is a different story. My guess is the elected officials would live in multiple mansions on the rez while those working at the motel/casino would continue living in their allowed 1 room hogan made out of mud.
Thus, Indian reservations are a good example of what socialism looks like.
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Bill Sampson
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
One of the reports said that if they were willing to relocate, new jobs would be offered. I don't knoiw how well relocation will work for the Navajo Nation.
On another note, if they replaced the plant with solar or wind turbines, after the installation was complete only 1 or 2 people would be required to oversee the operation of the plant.
On another note, if they replaced the plant with solar or wind turbines, after the installation was complete only 1 or 2 people would be required to oversee the operation of the plant.
Flow
Member
I wish them and their families luck but why on earth would coal become useful again?
birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
I don'know how many Navajo's you know but I find your comment demeaning and uninformed. Old Navajo people live in a hogan(if you can find one) by choice because it is the traditional home of there people not because they are allowed. Many are independent people that prefer to live away from the rat race we call normal. So many Navajo's work at the dam, the marinas, restaurants and anywhere else a white works. They live in nice homes, old homes, run down homes ,mobile homes and anywhere else a white lives in. They do not share the traditions we share but they want a secure life just like us. Go to Kaibato, le che, Bitter springs, or any other native community surrounding page and you will be hard pressed to find a hogan. If you do it will probably used for ceremonies. As far as no private land on the rez and the citizens being at the mercy of what the tribe will allow them to have. You tell me how the tribe can give anything to their citizens when the U.S. still owns all the land. The tribe owns nothing and it could be taken away. Try living with that reality. That's not socalism that's what happens to conquered peple.
birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
I'm over it.
John P Funk
Escalante-Class Member
The Navajo Nation has an incredibly high unemployment rate even with the jobs at the powerplant. This loss can only hurt their economy. Coal is a relatively inexpensive source of energy(second only to nuclear if the coal is sourced nearby(as it is in this case)). The question becomes how much pollution are we willing to accept to provide mining jobs and plant jobs to an already desperate people-group. The Obama administration lowered that acceptable pollution level to a point where coal plants became more expensive to operate than other fuel sources. Obama and the EPA are the responsible parties for this shutdown.
Doug Elworthy
Active Member
The plant should be converted to burn natural gas. It just makes sense. Utilize the huge investment already made in the current facility. The cost of the gas pipeline to fuel it would be a wash as opposed to dismantling and reclaiming and restoring the site.
It's a cleaner burn
It's inexpensive
The San Juan basin has huge proven gas reserves.
Sorry folks, subsidized wind and solar can only scratch the surface of demand.
Just my .02$
It's a cleaner burn
It's inexpensive
The San Juan basin has huge proven gas reserves.
Sorry folks, subsidized wind and solar can only scratch the surface of demand.
Just my .02$
Bill Sampson
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Good idea.
birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
You're hired!
Jeremy Deakin
Member
If the green new deal passes they can bulid one right next to it that runs on unicorn farts and good feelings.
That's funny I don't care who you are!
Mrs. BigDogGuy
Well-Known Member
All of the plant employees are being offered jobs elsewhere in the system, that means those families can keep a decent paying middle class wage, but not in Page. The problem for Page is that it is remote and there is not a large middle class group working here. If you work at the plant your spouse may work at Wal-Mart or a hotel or restaurant or clean VRBOs. If all these families leave it is going to make the bad customer service of the past look great. There is not the population base to serve well the huge summer tourist influx.
So many assume it was Obama or the EPA that forced the closure of the NGS.
The real reason is just capitalism and share holder demands for profits. Newer technology and cheaper alternatives is what killed it. The lack of consumers wanting more expensive power, and the desires of the owners & shareholders of the NGS not wanting losses, and contracts at term, is the combined force behind shutting down the NGS. Sadly, nobody cares about the lost jobs.
The primary party wanting to keep the NGS open is the Navajo Nation and the employees for reasons including wages and jobs. The only way the NGS will stay operational is with massive federal subsidies as the free market will let NGS die for a better product driven by consumer pressures. After decades of profit the NGS is no longer able to compete. The owners can buy cleaner power from their competitors cheaper than they can make it at the NGS. That’s the problem.
Although the NGS is one of the cleanest coal fired power plants in the world, this is not enough to save it. Ironically the NGS was a player in the formation of the EPA as we know it today. The pressures to reduce pollution at the NGS happened after it opened in 1977 when the NPS totally freaked out over NGS pollution flooding the land and obstructing the visability at nearby parks (Grand Canyon), so congress amended the clean air act and the NPS had a much bigger seat at the table. Surprising, the upgrade to meet the NPS clean air standard took about 20 years to complete and the adjusted cost for this upgrade was almost as much as the original cost of the NGS.
Surprisingly, the Navajo Nation does not own the NGS or the coal mine up the street, looks like Peabody got their hands on the mine and the BOR and a bunch of secondaries own the NGS. The Navajo nation does get 1 million per year for land lease and a bunch of NN job slots. Basically they got screwed from day 1.
The payroll at the coal mine is double that of the NGS, which is about 50 million a year, and that is the key argument of keeping the NGS open, keeping that 50 million cash flowing at all cost, even at a loss. The problem for the employees is nobody wants to buy the NGS because it is no longe profitable and it also no longer has any contracts for power after 2019.
Massive new shale production and its byproduct, low priced and low polluting natural gas, is the ultimate winner and the top reason for the final collapse of the NGS and many other coal burning power plants. And you don’t just swap out NG for coal as a fuel. World governments have pledged to be 100% coal free by 2060, and California will be coal zero by 2025 or sooner as their contracts expire. Consumers are demanding cleaner products and natural gas is the clear low price winner.
An Ironic twist, the coal mine museum dedicated to the countries coal industry in Kentucky is powered by solar panels not coal fired electric. Coal will continue to die and then it will be dead. Unless shale fracking and shale harvesting contaminates all the ground water and we die first.
The cycle will continue, and soon, natural gas will see tough times and will be replaced by better (or goodenough) battery technology. As soon as battery technology is able to store enough energy to bridge local power demand during low renewable periods like night there will be a massive shift to self contained power systems and then homes will no longer need or have a power cable. Natural gas will survive powering industry but coal miners will be long gone. In time, history will illuminate that coal made our country great but renewables lifted it and made it greater.
In regards to reviving the coal industry, not gonna happen... it is the coal plant owners adding automation that has reduced 97% of the labor needed, not the EPA. Peabody wants to shut down the mine that serves NGS as they can produce coal cheaper in WY and there is no means of exporting the coal from the AZ mine, the train track (ironic it’s an electric train) ends at the NGS.
The buggy whip employees got better jobs in growing markets and so will the displaced NGS employees. In the end all will win, with the biggest winner being anything the breaths.
If you want to see a world void of government pollution regulations go to China, if you can see through the pollution, you will be able to see what a world without pollution standards looks like.
Wind and solar will keep your vision and lungs clear of pollution.
The real reason is just capitalism and share holder demands for profits. Newer technology and cheaper alternatives is what killed it. The lack of consumers wanting more expensive power, and the desires of the owners & shareholders of the NGS not wanting losses, and contracts at term, is the combined force behind shutting down the NGS. Sadly, nobody cares about the lost jobs.
The primary party wanting to keep the NGS open is the Navajo Nation and the employees for reasons including wages and jobs. The only way the NGS will stay operational is with massive federal subsidies as the free market will let NGS die for a better product driven by consumer pressures. After decades of profit the NGS is no longer able to compete. The owners can buy cleaner power from their competitors cheaper than they can make it at the NGS. That’s the problem.
Although the NGS is one of the cleanest coal fired power plants in the world, this is not enough to save it. Ironically the NGS was a player in the formation of the EPA as we know it today. The pressures to reduce pollution at the NGS happened after it opened in 1977 when the NPS totally freaked out over NGS pollution flooding the land and obstructing the visability at nearby parks (Grand Canyon), so congress amended the clean air act and the NPS had a much bigger seat at the table. Surprising, the upgrade to meet the NPS clean air standard took about 20 years to complete and the adjusted cost for this upgrade was almost as much as the original cost of the NGS.
Surprisingly, the Navajo Nation does not own the NGS or the coal mine up the street, looks like Peabody got their hands on the mine and the BOR and a bunch of secondaries own the NGS. The Navajo nation does get 1 million per year for land lease and a bunch of NN job slots. Basically they got screwed from day 1.
The payroll at the coal mine is double that of the NGS, which is about 50 million a year, and that is the key argument of keeping the NGS open, keeping that 50 million cash flowing at all cost, even at a loss. The problem for the employees is nobody wants to buy the NGS because it is no longe profitable and it also no longer has any contracts for power after 2019.
Massive new shale production and its byproduct, low priced and low polluting natural gas, is the ultimate winner and the top reason for the final collapse of the NGS and many other coal burning power plants. And you don’t just swap out NG for coal as a fuel. World governments have pledged to be 100% coal free by 2060, and California will be coal zero by 2025 or sooner as their contracts expire. Consumers are demanding cleaner products and natural gas is the clear low price winner.
An Ironic twist, the coal mine museum dedicated to the countries coal industry in Kentucky is powered by solar panels not coal fired electric. Coal will continue to die and then it will be dead. Unless shale fracking and shale harvesting contaminates all the ground water and we die first.
The cycle will continue, and soon, natural gas will see tough times and will be replaced by better (or goodenough) battery technology. As soon as battery technology is able to store enough energy to bridge local power demand during low renewable periods like night there will be a massive shift to self contained power systems and then homes will no longer need or have a power cable. Natural gas will survive powering industry but coal miners will be long gone. In time, history will illuminate that coal made our country great but renewables lifted it and made it greater.
In regards to reviving the coal industry, not gonna happen... it is the coal plant owners adding automation that has reduced 97% of the labor needed, not the EPA. Peabody wants to shut down the mine that serves NGS as they can produce coal cheaper in WY and there is no means of exporting the coal from the AZ mine, the train track (ironic it’s an electric train) ends at the NGS.
The buggy whip employees got better jobs in growing markets and so will the displaced NGS employees. In the end all will win, with the biggest winner being anything the breaths.
If you want to see a world void of government pollution regulations go to China, if you can see through the pollution, you will be able to see what a world without pollution standards looks like.
Wind and solar will keep your vision and lungs clear of pollution.
John P Funk
Escalante-Class Member
But they won't keep the lights on.
Bill Sampson
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Well said. I think improved battery storage will be the key for solar and wind.
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