stickbow shooter
Well-Known Member
What was the outcome of the house boat in Kane Creek that used the beach as there own private porta potty.
what ever happened?
- Thread starter stickbow shooter
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From my August 2018 post:
"My understanding is that the perps were given the option to pay a big fine (many thousands of dollars) OR clean-up the beach themselves, under the supervision of NPS personnel.
The family cleaned the beach and the case was closed. I'm not aware of how they exactly cleaned it. And I am not aware of any fines or any other actions taken against them."
I originally thought this situation could have been used as a real "lesson" to deter future boaters from using the beaches as their toilet, but in the end, I don't think that the lesson was communicated very well. In the past, I've heard NPS say they can't do much about people pooping on the beach because they don't have actual proof of who did it. In this case, we had proof - photographic and many persons who viewed the crime willing to travel to Big Water to appear in court to testify (as we were asked to do). But the settlement was made with the perps before getting to that point.
I did see the perp houseboat at the fuel dock this summer - and it will always be known to me and my guests as the "Poop Boat".
"My understanding is that the perps were given the option to pay a big fine (many thousands of dollars) OR clean-up the beach themselves, under the supervision of NPS personnel.
The family cleaned the beach and the case was closed. I'm not aware of how they exactly cleaned it. And I am not aware of any fines or any other actions taken against them."
I originally thought this situation could have been used as a real "lesson" to deter future boaters from using the beaches as their toilet, but in the end, I don't think that the lesson was communicated very well. In the past, I've heard NPS say they can't do much about people pooping on the beach because they don't have actual proof of who did it. In this case, we had proof - photographic and many persons who viewed the crime willing to travel to Big Water to appear in court to testify (as we were asked to do). But the settlement was made with the perps before getting to that point.
I did see the perp houseboat at the fuel dock this summer - and it will always be known to me and my guests as the "Poop Boat".
stickbow shooter
Well-Known Member
Sounds like they got off way to easy.thanks for the information
Havalina
Escalante-Class Member
Unfortunately, it all boils down to money. I am a lod retired leo, and the federal court system can be a nightmare. I am not sure what jurisdiction these charges were filed in, but I am assuming in a federal court. If that was the case, the federal judges can get pretty pissy about what comes up on their docket. Once again with out seeing the charging documents, I am fairly sure that they we charged with a federal misdemeanor.
If that was the case, it would have been cost prohibitive to hammer that family by going to a court trial. First, the prosecution runs the risk of pissing off the judge, because he may see as a waste of his time. Secondly, the federal prosecutors are no slouches and are very detailed in their work. They are actually graded on their win/loss ratio. So, they will spend whatever amount of time that is necessary to secure a conviction. You also need to look at the Ussc sentencing guidelines.
The maximum sentence for a class a misdemeanor is 1 year. It cost roughly $100 per day for incarceration. Then who goes to jail? Daddy or Mommy or both. If you send the breadwinner of the family to to jail, who suffers? The kids most likely. Sure, you could impose a heavy fine, but you are going to destroy a family for pooping on the beach.
Look at the outcome of this case. The family had to literally clean up their poop, under the supervision of the nps. They learned their lesson. They park will recover environmentally. For that family justice was served. The press could have covered it and sent a great message as a deterrent, but they might not to have wanted to publicly humiliate the family. I learned a long time ago that stiff penalties are not a deterrent, but active enforcement is. Where is lorax when we really need him? You can look at yellowstone. They actively prosecute individuals for walking out on the geysers. Even with active enforcement, folks continue to do it.
I know it sucks how people treat our beautiful lands. It seems that most have no respect for nature or the fact that what they destroy may never recover or it may hundreds of years to. Our national parks are being loved to death, unfortunately. There might be someone on this site with a jd or experience with the federal court system that has jurisdiction over Lake Powell that can flesh out this perspective. All of my experience, is with the federal court in Denver.
I hope this provides a little different perspective on the punishment that the pooper family received. Just think what lake Powell would look like without those great volunteers who drive around the lake on their time and pick up others peoples garbage.
If that was the case, it would have been cost prohibitive to hammer that family by going to a court trial. First, the prosecution runs the risk of pissing off the judge, because he may see as a waste of his time. Secondly, the federal prosecutors are no slouches and are very detailed in their work. They are actually graded on their win/loss ratio. So, they will spend whatever amount of time that is necessary to secure a conviction. You also need to look at the Ussc sentencing guidelines.
The maximum sentence for a class a misdemeanor is 1 year. It cost roughly $100 per day for incarceration. Then who goes to jail? Daddy or Mommy or both. If you send the breadwinner of the family to to jail, who suffers? The kids most likely. Sure, you could impose a heavy fine, but you are going to destroy a family for pooping on the beach.
Look at the outcome of this case. The family had to literally clean up their poop, under the supervision of the nps. They learned their lesson. They park will recover environmentally. For that family justice was served. The press could have covered it and sent a great message as a deterrent, but they might not to have wanted to publicly humiliate the family. I learned a long time ago that stiff penalties are not a deterrent, but active enforcement is. Where is lorax when we really need him? You can look at yellowstone. They actively prosecute individuals for walking out on the geysers. Even with active enforcement, folks continue to do it.
I know it sucks how people treat our beautiful lands. It seems that most have no respect for nature or the fact that what they destroy may never recover or it may hundreds of years to. Our national parks are being loved to death, unfortunately. There might be someone on this site with a jd or experience with the federal court system that has jurisdiction over Lake Powell that can flesh out this perspective. All of my experience, is with the federal court in Denver.
I hope this provides a little different perspective on the punishment that the pooper family received. Just think what lake Powell would look like without those great volunteers who drive around the lake on their time and pick up others peoples garbage.
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Havalina, good perspective. Thanks.
I get P.O.ed when people throw their cigarette butts in the water or out the window of their vehicles and think they should serve hard time also! Kidding of course, but it is a huge pet peeve of mine. The punishment is basically looking like a fool to many who see the perps do it.
Thankfully I never do anything wrong or do anything to upset anyone (obviously said in jest!!!!!).
I get P.O.ed when people throw their cigarette butts in the water or out the window of their vehicles and think they should serve hard time also! Kidding of course, but it is a huge pet peeve of mine. The punishment is basically looking like a fool to many who see the perps do it.
Thankfully I never do anything wrong or do anything to upset anyone (obviously said in jest!!!!!).
Dworwood
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Havalina, growing up in farm country I guess it would really upset a lot of people if they learned what most farmers do when they are on a tractor miles away from the house and the urge hits them! It is a fact of life and I promise every wild animal around LP uses the beaches and we don’t prosecute them. Don’t get me wrong, I think this behavior is unacceptable at Powell but I am surprised at how sanitized our culture has become. I am surprised they came back to the lake, I know people with less offensive offenses who would never step foot back there after being humiliated like I would think that family feels like. They made a big mistake but jail time, really? Thanks for putting it in perspective. I have to agree with what you say. I will take some flack probably for this but where did a little common sense go? Has no one ever “gone in the woods”?
GregC
Well-Known Member
Or, as my kids hate to hear " I made a mistake once...I thought I was wrong....but, no.."
Gem Morris
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Here's my opinion.
At the time this happened I was really upset. I wanted to "OUT" the boat owner publicly and shame him for doing something so disgusting. I talked to the boat management company and verified that they knew who the owner was but they would not disclose to me the name.
After hitting that wall I personally talked to the GCNRA public relations officer several times by phone and email. I even went to their offices (not easy to do since I live in SLC) and met with her. That was a COMPLETELY frustrating effort as well. She was nice but useless.
I finally dropped my efforts after 9 months of effort since it seemed I could get nowhere on this.
If I was ever to witness this in person I suppose I would go talk to the boat owner, take plenty of pictures including the boat name and registration. But its obvious to me that the NPS won't do anything about this. I suppose the best course of action would be threaten to "out" the guy on social media. But that could be a huge mess too. I actually don't know how to handle this. It's still very frustrating to me.
At the time this happened I was really upset. I wanted to "OUT" the boat owner publicly and shame him for doing something so disgusting. I talked to the boat management company and verified that they knew who the owner was but they would not disclose to me the name.
After hitting that wall I personally talked to the GCNRA public relations officer several times by phone and email. I even went to their offices (not easy to do since I live in SLC) and met with her. That was a COMPLETELY frustrating effort as well. She was nice but useless.
I finally dropped my efforts after 9 months of effort since it seemed I could get nowhere on this.
If I was ever to witness this in person I suppose I would go talk to the boat owner, take plenty of pictures including the boat name and registration. But its obvious to me that the NPS won't do anything about this. I suppose the best course of action would be threaten to "out" the guy on social media. But that could be a huge mess too. I actually don't know how to handle this. It's still very frustrating to me.
Havalina
Escalante-Class Member
I wrote a rant on this topic, but deleted it because it really offered no positive to this conversation. Then after reflecting on this scenario, I honestly think that everyone should be lauded for how they handled themselves. The folks who took pictures and and reported the pooper family, did the right thing. It might not have felt right, but instead of confronting the family. They became good witnesses, reported the incident. The outcome was well measured by the nps and court system.
There would not have been any positive out come by going the feel good route. For example:
1. Someone walked over and confronted the family about their total lack of manners or concern for anyone else at the lake. The family is humiliated, and It is very possible that Dad gets into a physical confrontation. In todays would, someone may literally loose their life for some poop on the beach. Is going to jail, being phyiscally injured, or dying worth someone pooping on a beach?
2. The family is from the city, and has no idea of cat-holes, or why you don‘t poop on the beach for hygiene reasons. You go over and confront the family and #1 is back in play.
I guess the best case would have been if someone would have diplomatically walked over and given them a 5 gallon bucket and some trash bags and a quick lesson about field hygiene.
I am not diplomatic and growing up in southwest Texas and spending a fun 10 years in the USMC. I like to fight and will not suffer rude People. This is why I go into self imposed exile from Lake Powell from May 15-Sept 15, every year. I learned very quickly as a cop, that every kids parents are their hero's. Even if I would have called them animals. So, where I am going with this. The folks who were good witnesses and didn’t “out” that family on social media. They used that “common sense“ that Dorwood mentions. Did absolutely the right thing and should pat themselves on the back for their actions.
The only problem is that it seems that the idiots of the world seem to breed 3 times faster than the rest of us. Pick and choose your battles wisely, because you are always out numbered.
There would not have been any positive out come by going the feel good route. For example:
1. Someone walked over and confronted the family about their total lack of manners or concern for anyone else at the lake. The family is humiliated, and It is very possible that Dad gets into a physical confrontation. In todays would, someone may literally loose their life for some poop on the beach. Is going to jail, being phyiscally injured, or dying worth someone pooping on a beach?
2. The family is from the city, and has no idea of cat-holes, or why you don‘t poop on the beach for hygiene reasons. You go over and confront the family and #1 is back in play.
I guess the best case would have been if someone would have diplomatically walked over and given them a 5 gallon bucket and some trash bags and a quick lesson about field hygiene.
I am not diplomatic and growing up in southwest Texas and spending a fun 10 years in the USMC. I like to fight and will not suffer rude People. This is why I go into self imposed exile from Lake Powell from May 15-Sept 15, every year. I learned very quickly as a cop, that every kids parents are their hero's. Even if I would have called them animals. So, where I am going with this. The folks who were good witnesses and didn’t “out” that family on social media. They used that “common sense“ that Dorwood mentions. Did absolutely the right thing and should pat themselves on the back for their actions.
The only problem is that it seems that the idiots of the world seem to breed 3 times faster than the rest of us. Pick and choose your battles wisely, because you are always out numbered.
John P Funk
Escalante-Class Member
When asked the difference between ignorance and apathy, I say "I don't know, and I don't care"(old joke). These situations typically result from a mix of both ignorance and apathy. Education will cure the ignorance, but there is generally not much you can do about apathy. It may be that they didn't understand that as the lake fills their waste could in reality cause a significant health hazard to anyone in the area. More likely, they weighed the inconvenience of pumping out early and the above mentioned health hazard and chose to convenience themselves. A calm person could have informed them of the hazard, but you can't make someone "care". In general, we have become a society who cannot be corrected, even when clearly in the wrong. I pray for the future.
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