Water Supply Forecast Increasing Rapidly

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Draining Lake Powell would be like unringing a bell. It would take hundreds of years(several massive floods) for the canyon to return to anything similar to what it was pre-reservoir. Currently the Hite area would seem a bit boring as you raft between dirt banks many feet deep.
 
When I think about deep geologic time I try to imagine what geologist millions of years from now will think while exploring the "Lake Powell Sandstone" formation and finding fossilized lawn chairs, coolers. beer cans, props and boats...

kinda like the fossils that can be found in the formations we see today on the lake
 
JFRCalifornia said:
There are only a few plausible explanations why anyone would want to drain Lake Powell:

1. You are not aware of the big picture connections between water, energy, and economics that drive life in the southwest.
2. You are aware of those things, but prioritize your own personal values over the collective needs of millions of people.
3. You have a friend who wants to see Lake Powell drained, and you like your friend.
4. You are over 80 years old, used to run the river, and wish things were the way they used to be.
5. You're under 80 years old, have seen lots of old pictures of Glen Canyon from the 1950s, and wish for something you've never seen before.
6. You believe in myths.
7. You don't believe in critical thinking.

Now I'm not saying there aren't good, passionate people who want to see Lake Powell drained, and sincerely believe in the concept. In my opinion, they just haven't thought it through, given the reality of what is on the ground... today, right now...

I will say the only possible argument that really makes any sense to me is the one that says--"Lake Powell will be a mudflat in 700 years. Let's restore the canyon now so we don't completely fill it with silt before we cause any more damage." And I could even support that, IF we could find a way to replace all the critical values that Lake Powell and the other reservoirs in the system bring, without completely disrupting human settlement patterns and the things we rely on to live in the West for the foreseeable future.
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Great list! I do think one particular explanation is missing and that’s one’s motivation/intention. So, if Lake Powell were to be drained, what is suggested to be done with the river once it’s drained? People are driven by what they believe and what they may or may not get out of something. So I ask, seriously, what should be done with the river once it’s drained?

I am an analyst, by profession, and to be good at it I have learned a few things. 1) Look at all the variables. 2) Acknowledge there are variables you may know have thought of. 3) Ensure you include the opinions of other subject matter experts. Finally, 4) Don’t be so smug that you know everything.

I personally believe many of the drainers are so driven by an ideology that they fall short in analyzing the entire landscape, ecosystem and consequences of draining the lake. JFR’s #1 is a great explanation for many people that really believe that draining the lake is a good thing, but lack the understanding/comprehension of such action.

As an old Lake Powell enthusiast since the late 1960’s, I‘ve watched the lake fill, Page grow, a fishery evolve and witness countless people fall in love with one of the most beautiful places in the world. Now, more than ever, is the time to understand and not underestimate the drainers.
 
Many of the "DRAINERS" are in the renewable energy camp and probably don't realize that much of Powell's renewable electricty would have to be replaced by ?? The short lived raging spring floods would be heavy with mud from the dead Lakes' sediment. Most of Powell's remobilized sediment would clog the River and probably end up in Meade. Very short and unpleasant Grand Canyon rafting season. Have to find new sources of veggies w/o irrigation.
 
lakepowellnut said:
Great list! I do think one particular explanation is missing and that’s one’s motivation/intention. So, if Lake Powell were to be drained, what is suggested to be done with the river once it’s drained? People are driven by what they believe and what they may or may not get out of something. So I ask, seriously, what should be done with the river once it’s drained?

I am an analyst, by profession, and to be good at it I have learned a few things. 1) Look at all the variables. 2) Acknowledge there are variables you may know have thought of. 3) Ensure you include the opinions of other subject matter experts. Finally, 4) Don’t be so smug that you know everything.

I personally believe many of the drainers are so driven by an ideology that they fall short in analyzing the entire landscape, ecosystem and consequences of draining the lake. JFR’s #1 is a great explanation for many people that really believe that draining the lake is a good thing, but lack the understanding/comprehension of such action.

As an old Lake Powell enthusiast since the late 1960’s, I‘ve watched the lake fill, Page grow, a fishery evolve and witness countless people fall in love with one of the most beautiful places in the world. Now, more than ever, is the time to understand and not underestimate the drainers.
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Great post, on the mark.
 
Michael Pyle said:
I really am confused by the people that want to drain Lake Powell. After these years of low and high water inflow how can you deny the value of water storage. Regardless of recreation the reservoirs have shown we need them.

What are our schools teaching people these days. LOL

We were in Moab years ago, I think it was 1999. Took the kids to get ice cream downtown and as we are standing in line the owners are behind the counter preaching drain lake powell. Signs all over the ice cream shop about draining the lake. I had 3 kids and it was not easy to turn around and walk out of there. But we did it. kids were like WTF man. I told them if we eat that ice cream we cant go to the lake anymore. Wonder what happened to that place and those wackos.

Mike
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I remember that ice cream place well. I hope they are closed
 
JFRCalifornia said:
There are only a few plausible explanations why anyone would want to drain Lake Powell:

1. You are not aware of the big picture connections between water, energy, and economics that drive life in the southwest.
2. You are aware of those things, but prioritize your own personal values over the collective needs of millions of people.
3. You have a friend who wants to see Lake Powell drained, and you like your friend.
4. You are over 80 years old, used to run the river, and wish things were the way they used to be.
5. You're under 80 years old, have seen lots of old pictures of Glen Canyon from the 1950s, and wish for something you've never seen before.
6. You believe in myths.
7. You don't believe in critical thinking.

Now I'm not saying there aren't good, passionate people who want to see Lake Powell drained, and sincerely believe in the concept. In my opinion, they just haven't thought it through, given the reality of what is on the ground... today, right now...

I will say the only possible argument that really makes any sense to me is the one that says--"Lake Powell will be a mudflat in 700 years. Let's restore the canyon now so we don't completely fill it with silt before we cause any more damage." And I could even support that, IF we could find a way to replace all the critical values that Lake Powell and the other reservoirs in the system bring, without completely disrupting human settlement patterns and the things we rely on to live in the West for the foreseeable future.
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JFRC,

Your list was written to apply to folk who want to completely drain Powell. But it gets a lot more complicated if you consider intermediate positions. For example, there are people (you know who you are!) who would like to see Powell stabilized around 3588 as a balance between multiple competing factors. There are presumably people who think they would like Powell always at or near 3700', and I would argue that your explanations #1 or #2 apply to those people as well, because they are missing the flood control (and dam safety!) components of Lake Powell operations. So both extremes suffer from problems #1 and 2. In between, though, there are lots of alternatives that I think are each reasonable, and involve tradeoffs rather than outright errors or oversights by their proponents. The 3588' proposal is one example. For another example, there is an argument for having Powell stabilized at 3491' (and somewhat higher during runoff), as it was in September 1964-June 1965. That would preserve Powell as a source of electricity, of flood control, and of Compact compliance. It would allow both boating (albeit on a smaller reservoir than currently) and hiking (in longer and deeper and thus arguably more scenic) side canyons than currently. So the difference between the 3490' crowd and the 3588' crowd is largely one of tradeoffs between different kinds of recreation, where reasonable people can differ, and your 7 explanations don't apply to either group.
 
Dorado said:
Kevin, do you think North Wash holds fish anymore?
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Unfortunately probably not. I fished it last spring, deepest part was 5-6 feet max. There were fish in there but it was real muddy and not sure they made it through the hot summer but I’ll probably hike down this spring and give it a go. We destroyed the crappie in there during Covid!!
 
fishfry said:
Unfortunately probably not. I fished it last spring, deepest part was 5-6 feet max. There were fish in there but it was real muddy and not sure they made it through the hot summer but I’ll probably hike down this spring and give it a go. We destroyed the crappie in there during Covid!!
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Watch those snakeso_O
 
Eagle Rock said:
JFRC,

Your list was written to apply to folk who want to completely drain Powell. But it gets a lot more complicated if you consider intermediate positions. For example, there are people (you know who you are!) who would like to see Powell stabilized around 3588 as a balance between multiple competing factors. There are presumably people who think they would like Powell always at or near 3700', and I would argue that your explanations #1 or #2 apply to those people as well, because they are missing the flood control (and dam safety!) components of Lake Powell operations. So both extremes suffer from problems #1 and 2. In between, though, there are lots of alternatives that I think are each reasonable, and involve tradeoffs rather than outright errors or oversights by their proponents. The 3588' proposal is one example. For another example, there is an argument for having Powell stabilized at 3491' (and somewhat higher during runoff), as it was in September 1964-June 1965. That would preserve Powell as a source of electricity, of flood control, and of Compact compliance. It would allow both boating (albeit on a smaller reservoir than currently) and hiking (in longer and deeper and thus arguably more scenic) side canyons than currently. So the difference between the 3490' crowd and the 3588' crowd is largely one of tradeoffs between different kinds of recreation, where reasonable people can differ, and your 7 explanations don't apply to either group.
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That's a reasonable analysis, and you're right--I was focused on the extreme position of those who seek to drain Lake Powell. I think at the end of the day, it's best to view Lake Powell as part of a complex water management system that balances multiple goals intended to make human life easier within an arid region never intended through natural means to support the population and development it has achieved over the past 150 years or so. It is expected--even necessary--for lake levels to fluctuate dramatically in order to achieve those goals.

Personally, I think there are unique opportunities to be had at almost any lake level. It's almost like having multiple lakes in one place.
 
JFRCalifornia said:
That's a reasonable analysis, and you're right--I was focused on the extreme position of those who seek to drain Lake Powell. I think at the end of the day, it's best to view Lake Powell as part of a complex water management system that balances multiple goals intended to make human life easier within an arid region never intended through natural means to support the population and development it has achieved over the past 150 years or so. It is expected--even necessary--for lake levels to fluctuate dramatically in order to achieve those goals.

Personally, I think there are unique opportunities to be had at almost any lake level. It's almost like having multiple lakes in one place.
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Agreed as long as we can launch ALL size boats at the north end!!!!😆
 
Paul_G said:
We found a rattler hiding in the bushes by our cooler in 2021, in Escalante. Sure made me more aware of where I step when I'm at Powell.
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Thanks for the reminder, does anyone have a great resource about the snakes that live in the Powell area, more specifically the Bullfrog/Halls end of the lake? Had our first run in with a big snake last year and it wasn’t a rattle snake and it wasn’t a king snake.
 
thekid26 said:
Thanks for the reminder, does anyone have a great resource about the snakes that live in the Powell area, more specifically the Bullfrog/Halls end of the lake? Had our first run in with a big snake last year and it wasn’t a rattle snake and it wasn’t a king snake.
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For a good discussion of snakes at Lake Powell, here's a thread from about 3 years ago. Now all those snakes in the photos are just three years older and wiser....

Snake Encounters

In another thread, Pegasus told a great story of how in his first trip to Lake Powell, he encountered some floating logs in Iceberg Canyon that were infested with...snakes! Wow! So that got me thinking about all the times I've encountered rattlesnakes at Lake Powell. And when I do, I realize...
wayneswords.net wayneswords.net
 
thekid26 said:
Thanks for the reminder, does anyone have a great resource about the snakes that live in the Powell area, more specifically the Bullfrog/Halls end of the lake? Had our first run in with a big snake last year and it wasn’t a rattle snake and it wasn’t a king snake.
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What did it look like? Try here: Snakes in Utah

A few years ago, we saw a king snake that was black and white striped and about 10 feet long down Peek-A-Boo slot canyon area, but I haven't seen a snake at Powell itself. Just mind you that I was looking at it with snake detecting eyes, so it could have been anywhere from 2 to 8 feet and it would have registered as 10 feet. Here is a picture though.
DSC_0212.JPG
 
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nzaugg said:
What did it look like? Try here: Snakes in Utah

A few years ago, we saw a king snake that was black and white striped and about 10 feet long down Peek-A-Boo slot canyon area, but I haven't seen a snake at Powell itself.
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I didn’t get that close as I gave him a ton of space. I never thought about it being a King Snake but that’s probably what it was. Black in color and at least 5 feet long swimming along the base of a cliff looking for a spot to exit and head up the beach. Was not a rattlesnake as we have many of those in SD and pretty used to seeing them. Thanks for the response, have a great day.
 
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