Veterinarians

#1
Like a lot of folks we bring our dog to LP Bullfrog area. Wondering where the nearest veterinarian is in case of a canine emergency such as snake bite or illness? On google I don't see anything in Hanksville or Green River but may have missed someone not listed.
 

PowellBride

Well-Known Member
#2
Try Moab, Monticello and Torrey. Basically, it's best to keep them on leash on shore or in the water if you are worried about snakes. We bought a small snake bite kit from the army/navy surplus store when I took my dogs down, and read the instructions before each trip. Hard to say, but we basically knew a snake bite at Powell would probably be deadly for the dogs. Been blessed, in 30 years I've never actually seen anything besides a bull snake and I'd like to keep it that way
 
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Goblin

Well-Known Member
#4
We bought a small snake bite kit from the army/navy surplus store when I took my dogs down, and read the instructions before each trip. Hard to say, but we basically knew a snake bite at Powell would probably be deadly for the dogs.
Here is some information I have learned regarding snakebites collected from both real world training and academic sources:
  1. First Do No Harm
  2. Snakebite kits - Are of little use:
    • Do not make incisions to help remove venom which was the norm years ago - this does more harm than good.
    • A suction device is largely ineffective especially on furry surfaces. If used it does give the feeling of trying. Venom spreads so fast that blood & other bodily fluids are mostly all that you will get out.
    • Never use a tourniquet which again was a norm in days gone by. Some still recommend a MILD constricting band, that in no way cuts off circulation, between the heart and bite. This too, is out of favor. The reason is that people suck (sts) at that and panicky people really suck at that. A constricting band generally can do far more harm than good.
    • Antiseptic wipes or solution: You SHOULD clean the bite as soon as possible with water flushing the wound. This will remove any venom on or very near the surface which could be absorbed by the victim. An antiseptic can then be applied to help prevent infection
  3. Cold/ice packs to slow venom movement are another mostly not recommended treatment. This is now believed to do more harm than good but some still recommend it. I personally don't because it does little to slow the venom and makes an injured in-shock victim cold. When treating shock you should keep the victim warm if possible and dogs/cats have an even higher body temp than us lowly humans.
  4. It is recommended to keep the bite below heart level if possible. It might help and it doesn't make anything worse.
  5. Identify the snake: Photograph it, catch it, kill it - whatever it takes. Being able to show or tell what the snake was is very important to a provider for treatment.
  6. Proceed to medical help as fast as is safe. Note: Don't forget the dog. ... Hey, some people would.
The good news:
Some estimates place death to dogs from poisonous snakebites at less than about one in five (20%) .
Here is the primary reason for that.
About two thirds of first-strike snakebites have little to no venom. Envenomation is voluntary on the part of the snake and the snake does not like to waste such a precious resource unnecessarily. It's life depends on hunting that next meal and wasting ammo (sts) on a dog/human that can be scared away by a dry strike is not the first choice.

A dry strike is the most probable first-strike from a snake here in the US.


Note: All bets are off with immature juveniles that have not learned how to control themselves. (Applies to the dog also and humans for that matter.)

A muzzle might come in handy for any injured, otherwise friendly animal. If it's hurt, again all bets might be off.
I remember one time I was helping with an injured pet. Just the noise alone of barking and screaming all the while trying to scratch and bite. Terrible! Once we got the muzzle on my wife, taking care of our cat was much easier.:eek:.....;) {Dramatization, may not have happened}

FWIW,
Goblin
 
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Goblin

Well-Known Member
#5
Just corrected my post....accidently said to keep bite above heart level and that's just kinda dumb....I fixed it
 
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birdsnest

Well-Known Member
#6
10 years on Powell with an extremely active dog. No leash, no snake bites and a blast. I think one would have to be extremely unlucky to get bit. To me, the fun outweighed the risk 10 times over but to each their own. BTW my dog Zeke swam underwater up to about 15 feet. When I dove down to see what he was doing he would be walking on the bottom like a hippo. When I would get close he would look at me and smile. I would have to surface everytime cause it's not a good idea to laugh underwater. 1/2 chocolate lab 1/2 australian shepherd. Sure miss him.
 
#7
Goblin, as a former paramedic I totally agree with the snake bite treatment. Basically need to keep quite, least movement as possible and get to a hospital. There are no good "snake bite kits" but some left over from the old days of "cut and suck", tourniquets, etc. They should not be on the market. 7-8,000 people in U.S. are bitten each year but only half a dozen die so odds in one's favor. Had heard that most dogs survive as well and the envenomation is a factor you hope is in your favor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_snake_bites_in_the_United_States

Great story Birdsnest about your diving dog. In the past I have let our dog run free within limits but have become more paranoid I guess given there are no vets within a hundred miles. And it would be the end of the trip for everyone involved as well.
 

Ryan

Well-Known Member
#8
Bring Benadryl with you. 1 mg per 1 pound of dog.

There are also snake avoidance clinics for your dog. Usually held in the spring.
 
#9
Actually we do carry benadryl as our dog recently had some allergies, prescribed by our vet 1 mg/lb dose twice a day. I also read that for snake bite and swelling you can give 2/mg per pound until veterinarian contact. Remove collar in case of neck swelling. Also 50 mg of Tramadol for pain is ok if indicated.
 

Dave I.

Well-Known Member
#10
There is a new Vet in Lyman, UT and there is a Vet Hospital in Bicknell, UT. They are probably the closest to Bullfrog. You can figure 130+/- miles each way from Bullfrog for either of them

Tri County Veterinary Hospital
Address: 352 E 200th N, Bicknell, UT 84715
Phone: (435) 425-3487
I believe this hospital just does livestock and large animals but could be wrong.

Fremont River Veterinary Clinic
202 W SR 24
Lyman, Utah, UT 84749

(435) 836-2211
This is a new practice and have been told they are eager for new customers and do treat dogs and cats. Haven't talked to them to verify that

Hope the word gets out and can save your pets if needed.
 

ROSCOELAB

Well-Known Member
#11
we live in Page, we use the snake bite vaccine they offer, boosters every year about the time the snakes are waking up, been lucky and the first rattle my dog heard he came running back to me, had that look on his face of "WTF is that dad?"
 

Pegasus

Well-Known Member
#12
Roscoelab, what is the "snake bite vaccine they offer"? Who is they - the vet in Page? This could be useful for us. Thanks for the info, Doug
 

Goblin

Well-Known Member
#13
Actually we do carry benadryl as our dog recently had some allergies, prescribed by our vet 1 mg/lb dose twice a day. I also read that for snake bite and swelling you can give 2/mg per pound until veterinarian contact. Remove collar in case of neck swelling. Also 50 mg of Tramadol for pain is ok if indicated.
Benadryl can be effective symptom relief:
Dosage: The general rule of thumb for an adult dog is 0.9 to 1.8 milligrams per pound of weight.
Side effects usually occur within an hour of taking the medication and are typically mild. If a dog experiences severe side effects, the animal needs immediate veterinary care. These include:
  • Drooling.
  • Excitability. Note: Not to be confused with the normal Drooling & Excitability of a standard issue, one each, happy-go-lucky dog.:p
Tramadol can help with pain if necessary:
Dosage: The general rule of thumb for an adult dog is .5 - 1.8mg per pound.
Side effects, of which there are many, can be mild or severe; common mild symptoms include: drowsiness, upset stomach, constipation, blurred vision, and difficulties sleeping. While these are not usually too dangerous, if you notice the symptoms increasing or persisting, talk to your vet. There are some dogs that experience more severe tramadol side effects and these require emergency medical attention from a vet: convulsions, peeling rash, difficulties breathing, or slowing of the heart rate.

Please be careful and only administer if absolutely necessary. If you think snakebite is bad.....wait until you have snakebite AND an OD or adverse reaction.
Roscoelab, what is the "snake bite vaccine they offer"? Who is they - the vet in Page? This could be useful for us. Thanks for the info, Doug
Please read the below before deciding on a snakebite vaccine which is really only a temporary short duration attempt at toxin acclimation. In other words, you dose the dog before the snake does....kinda a man bites dog idea.

Snake Oil or Snake Vaccine?
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Rebekah H. writes
to ask me what I think about rattlesnake vaccines.

I do not think too much about them, as I do not live in a part of the country with very many rattlesnakes. To put a point on it, my dogs are more likely to be killed by a herd of wild zebra than they are by an Eastern Diamondback rattlesnake.

That said, let's start with the obvious.

Vaccines are typically working off of T-cell immunity, while rattlesnake venom is a toxin.

Very different things.

Yes, a body can be acclimated to a toxin, but it does not last very long, unlike a traditional vaccine.

A small group of professional snake handlers have been injecting themselves with snake venom for a very long time in order to increase their tolerance in cases of an accidental bite.

The fact that this works is widely known, but the injections have to be done several times a year, and for different species of snakes. Not a huge problem if you are Bill Haast at the Miami Serpentarium Laboratories, but not the kind of thing anyone else is doing anywhere in the world.

The canine snake bite "vaccine" that is being sold in America today is simply toxin acclimatization. A small amount of Crotalus Atrox Toxoid is injected into your dog several times over several weeks, and the snake-bite "resistance" that results lasts for six months or less.

The shots themselves are not cheap -- they cost about $75 for a pair, and their price will be tacked on to the office visit charge from the vet. Add it all up, and snake vaccines are a small pile of money.

But do they work?

Well, let's go to the sales pitch. You see, if there is ANY scientific evidence that something works, it will generally be trotted out in the sales pitch.

We find the sales pitch over at the rattlesnakevaccinefordogs.com web site, which is owned and operated by Red Rock Biologics, which is the company specially created to sell this snake bite vaccine product.

What's it say? Just this:


In 2006 there was a nationwide survey of 720 veterinary hospitals that carried the Rattlesnake Vaccine that showed that about 30% of them had already treated vaccinated dogs for rattlesnake bites. These clinics were asked to rate how well the vaccine worked and give specifics on how vaccinated dogs did as opposed to non-vaccinated dogs who were bitten by rattlesnakes.

Just over 90% of veterinarians and animal hospitals rated the vaccine as working either well or very well. About 5% said that they had mixed results; sometimes the dogs appeared to do much better than would be expected and sometimes the dogs did just as poorly as if they were not protected. About 3% of clinics said that they couldn’t tell if the vaccine made any difference at all. About 2% responded by saying that they wanted to reserve judgment until they had treated more vaccinated dogs for snake bite. So the result is that the vast majority of veterinary hospitals actually treating dogs for snakebite found obvious benefits from the vaccine.
WHAT??

You mean instead of actually giving us a double-blind controlled-test result for this not-FDA approved "vaccine," they are giving us an OPINION SURVEY????

And the opinion survey is of people who PROFIT from selling the vaccine??

And the opinion survey is of people who might have seen only one or two snake bite cases in their entire career, and who might have no idea of what kind of snake the dog was bit by, and who certainly have no idea of how much venom was injected into the dog?

Give me a break!

If this is the best evidence Red Rocks Biologics can trot out in a sales presentation, then they are selling crap.

How hard it is to round up 50 Western Diamondback Rattlesnakes and 50 or 100 rescue Jack Russell terriers, and run an experiment?

How come they haven't done that?

How come they have not reported out the results?

Do you need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind blows?

Caveat emptor!

From what I can see, the only thing Red Rock Biologics guarantees with their vaccine is that you will get a veterinary bill and they will make a profit.

This is a great little business. After all, this "vaccine" is pretty damn expensive -- about $75 retail. If the vaccine is sold for $40 wholesale, and only 1 percent of the administered dogs are bitten by a venomous snake, and a payout is given to only 2 percent of those dogs (that would be a very high number for reasons I will explain in a minute), and that payout is just $400 (dogs are treated as mere property by the courts)..... well, you do the math.

Ka-ching!!

Now think a moment.

That's just for Red Rock Biologics.

The veterinarian administering this stuff is going to do even better.

You see, not only is your dog going to be sold three initial visits, but it's also going to be sold two or three more visits per year, every year. Wooooooeeeee!

But wait, it gets even better.

You see if your dog is ever hit by a rattlesnake, the vaccine will not save you a visit to the veterinarian. So there is no downside for the vet here. As Red Rock Biologics is careful to note:

Snakebite is always an emergency. Even a vaccinated dog should be taken to a veterinarian for evaluation and care as soon as possible following snakebite. Veterinarians can determine if your dog's immunity at the time of the bite is sufficient for the venom dose received or if additional treatment is required. Even bites by non-venomous snakes can lead to serious infections and antibiotic treatment may be needed. A veterinarian is the best person to consult regarding medical decisions for your dog.
Awesome!

Here's a company marketing a medical product for which they present NO scientific evidence of efficacy! Perfect!
And you will notice there is no human analog to this canine vaccine.

Why not?

Well, for one thing a human life is not worth $400.

Run the business model for dog vaccines, but plug in a human life at a mere $400,000 payout, and suddenly you have a very good reason this vaccine has no analog in the human world.

A few more points: The Red Rocks Biologics web site does not explain why their vaccine "works" as often as it does.

Here's a hint: it would work pretty well even if it was rain water.

You see, the joker in the deck is that 25% of all snake bites are "dry" bites with no venom injected at all.

Another 30 percent of all snake bites are injected with such a small amount of venom that, while there may be local pain and swelling in the bite area, there is otherwise no serious problem. Of the remaining 45% of bites, 40% are severe, but only 5% of bites, at most, are actually fatal for the dog. A review of the scientific literature found only a 1% mortality for prairie rattlesnake bites.

And this is with no vaccine at all!

...
FWIW,
Goblin
 

ROSCOELAB

Well-Known Member
#14
i dont know Goblin, the two dogs in our area that have been bit one took no antivenom ( a dry bite or a low dose injection) and the other was an early spring bite and he only took 2 viles of antivenom. now thats a whole lot better then the 5 to 10 viles most bites take. i will pay the $45 and roll the dice with the vaccine i guess. isnt that what we do with ourselves and kids anyway with vaccines?
Doug (pegasus) yes, offered at the vet here, i have done this for over 10 years with my dogs, we thought one had been bitten in 2005 and raced in off the lake, thats when the vet offered the vaccine.
 

Goblin

Well-Known Member
#15
Everyone has to make their own decision and I can't be certain which is the wisest choice. My choice is to not vaccinate unless it is necessary (even though this is not really a vaccine). A strong deciding point is efficacy which in this case is unproven without any documented evidence save a survey and anecdotes.

My own personal experience was to receive 11 different vaccines on multiple occasions as a child which were required when moving to and living in the jungles of Venezuela. Cholera, Typhoid, Yellow Fever were a few of them. As an adult, a variety of less usual ones were still required due to worldwide deployability. Today I receive but a few however, policy effects in the last few decades may soon ramp those numbers back up to a more Third World regimen here in the US, e.g., bedbugs everywhere, Hantavirus in the Southwest, bubonic plague in the Southwest, tuberculosis everywhere, Zika everywhere, ebola, etc. etc.

Any animals in my life, in-laws notwithstanding, are considered close family members and no cost, if it helps, would be spared. I have lost a dear pet to vaccine related sarcoma. That was and can still be a terrible cancer with a clear link to adjuvanted vaccines.

If you do your due diligence and decide it's required I wish you and your little friends the best of luck regardless of type of vaccine or treatment.

My best wishes for you and yours,
Goblin
 
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