Pipeline
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GoldCup
Active Member
Can it be argued that St. George is located in that which is considered the lower basin ? And Utah tax payers shouldn't be giving water to the lower basin and flipping the bill to finance it.
What a can of worms or Quadra mussels.
PBH
Well-Known Member
Yes. The lower basin drainages flow to Mead, not Powell. The Virgin River drainage goes to Meade, and covers most of Washington County, and thus Washington County would be in the "lower basin" below Lake Powell. St. George is ~800 feet below Lake Powell.
(FWIW -- I think the pipeline is crazy. I'm glad Iron County dropped out of the discussions for it)
JFRCalifornia
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Yes, hydrologically St. George is in the lower basin, but legally under the Colorado River Compact all of Utah is considered to be in the “Upper Basin”.
St. George is the fastest growing metro area in the country. But it’s per capita water use is also higher than almost every metro area in the West. And the water rates the pay are considerably lower than most other western cities. So there’s little incentive for conservation.
But simple conservation measures would allow them to grow the way they envision (and it’s a questionable vision) without the pipeline.
From a water use perspective, the pipeline would send 86,000 AF per year to St. George. In practical terms, this level of diversion would reduce the lake level on average about 1-2 feet compared to the current situation, depending on the volume in the lake at any given time.
Here's a link to a pretty good article summarizing key issues:
.https://www.outsideonline.com/2333236/utah-pipeline-water-shortage-st-george
St. George is the fastest growing metro area in the country. But it’s per capita water use is also higher than almost every metro area in the West. And the water rates the pay are considerably lower than most other western cities. So there’s little incentive for conservation.
But simple conservation measures would allow them to grow the way they envision (and it’s a questionable vision) without the pipeline.
From a water use perspective, the pipeline would send 86,000 AF per year to St. George. In practical terms, this level of diversion would reduce the lake level on average about 1-2 feet compared to the current situation, depending on the volume in the lake at any given time.
Here's a link to a pretty good article summarizing key issues:
.https://www.outsideonline.com/2333236/utah-pipeline-water-shortage-st-george
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GoldCup
Active Member
Utah has been established as a "Dry Water State" How does that apply if all the water in Utah is either appropriated or certificated and in 2008 was documented as being over allocated,
Water rights were reduced by "use it or loose it". Vegas is already tapping into our aquaphor in the West Desert. So many questions to be long and costly.
I lived in the mountains above SLC for 15 years. There was a moratorium on building new homes up their back in the late 1990s as there was no water left. They were concerned that building had already outgrown the water availability for already issued construction permits at that time.
I drove by there a couple of weeks ago - the area has grown by at least double, likely triple or quadruple the number of homes that existed there in the late 1990's, and I never hear about water allocation issues any longer. Somehow the powers that be "found" some available water.
Somehow, I think politics is involved........and it hasn't been just water conservation that has allowed the continued building.
I'm guessing the St. George pipeline is similar in many ways - it would be interesting to see exactly who will benefit from the additional water being available (i.e. whose worthless desert land will now be worth millions at the expense of all taxpayers). As the old saying goes, follow the money!
I drove by there a couple of weeks ago - the area has grown by at least double, likely triple or quadruple the number of homes that existed there in the late 1990's, and I never hear about water allocation issues any longer. Somehow the powers that be "found" some available water.
Somehow, I think politics is involved........and it hasn't been just water conservation that has allowed the continued building.
I'm guessing the St. George pipeline is similar in many ways - it would be interesting to see exactly who will benefit from the additional water being available (i.e. whose worthless desert land will now be worth millions at the expense of all taxpayers). As the old saying goes, follow the money!
birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
I am sorry to say that my experience with the Kane County Water Conservancy District has exposed the underbelly of a corrupt, greedy organization whose purpose is to line there own pockets with the monies developed by using questionable practises to acquire water rights. The development I live in during the summer had The conservancy show up and start the legal process to condemn our water source. It took ten years but they succeeded and our water supply was condemned forcing our community to relinquish our water shares and pay for a infrastructure that we didn't want or need. If you wanted water, you paid 10,000 dollars per lot for a water meter Our community has about 700 lots. And the conservancy acquired a government grant totalling about 9 million dollars. Do the math and it was a very lucrative endeavor for the conservancy. Our roads have been negatively impacted because of the lack of compaction during the pipe installation process as well as other tricky dick practices that have left us feeling screwed. We used to pay approximately 120 dollars for a summers worth of water, now we pay a monthly fee to pay back the $10,000 dollar initial charge at 6% interest and the monthly water bill which totals about $130 a month and the loss of our water rights. I am no fan of water conservancy districts and I would be willing to bet the Washington County Water Conservancy District is no better than their neighbor. There is a lot of funny business going on when these projects proceed. Watch out Washington County citizens and businesses cause I predict you are getting ready to get screwed. I don't know how these Water Districts started but the power they wield is unbelievable. By the way our community had been using the same water source since 1963. Never heard one report of illness from the water.
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JFRCalifornia
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Good question about how those water districts are formed, because yes, they have a lot of power. Under Utah state law, water districts are called “special service districts”, and they are typically created by cities or counties. But they can also be initiated by citizen petition in one of two ways: either 1) 10% of the registered voters within the proposed service area; or 2) property owners whose land value exceeds 10% of the taxable value in that service area. In other words, if you and your friends own a lot of land, and have friends on the Board of Supervisors or City Council, you can form a special district. That is a formula for corruption.
And with that, you essentially wield the same power as any government body within the purview of what that special district was formed to do. A water district in effect has nearly unlimited power to do anything related to water rates, planning and building water infrastructure, and of course, usually the County in which the district resides is supportive of these actions, and is shielded from political consequence simply because “the District” was responsible for those actions, not the County…
The Washington County Water Conservancy District has been around since 1962, and as it says on its own website, the district "was formed at the request of local property owners, who signed a petition authorizing the district to develop and manage the county’s water supplies, including taxing their properties to accomplish these goals."
In the SLC area, there are many of those "special service districts" for water - on one of those investigative reports on TV a few years ago, they investigated them, their power, and the salaries and benefits management takes (note, not earns). It was an eye-opening story - it is as close as you could get to legalized mafia rule - I wish I recalled the station it was on.
That tv program was this year and water district management directors on the Wasatch Front were making 300,000.00 or more per year. Not counting their asst. Dirs. And engineers over 100 k. That was an eye opener for me as my secondary water fees doubled. The plan is to meter secondary water and fees accordingly.
Rivergoer
Escalante-Class Member
The water district explanation sounds oddly familiar to our local Buckskin Sanitary District implementation in Parker, AZ...homeowners assessed $10,000 @ 5% interest plus fees to decertify septics and connect to sewer system followed by $42/monthly sewer fee...all terms dictated and fully controlled by the unelected “District” leadership.
A shock and huge burden for many older retirees on fixed incomes.
A shock and huge burden for many older retirees on fixed incomes.
Dworwood
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Agree about politics, central Utah water project that took over 40 years to build was diverted from central Utah to the Salt Lake Valley via the pipe line that runs along the hills in Utah county to the SLC valley. Water flows to money and central Utah got left in the dust. Politics completely.I lived in the mountains above SLC for 15 years. There was a moratorium on building new homes up their back in the late 1990s as there was no water left. They were concerned that building had already outgrown the water availability for already issued construction permits at that time.
I drove by there a couple of weeks ago - the area has grown by at least double, likely triple or quadruple the number of homes that existed there in the late 1990's, and I never hear about water allocation issues any longer. Somehow the powers that be "found" some available water.
Somehow, I think politics is involved........and it hasn't been just water conservation that has allowed the continued building.
I'm guessing the St. George pipeline is similar in many ways - it would be interesting to see exactly who will benefit from the additional water being available (i.e. whose worthless desert land will now be worth millions at the expense of all taxpayers). As the old saying goes, follow the money!
birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Since I am a Nevada resident and can't vote in Utah, although I live here in Kane county Utah for 6 months each year, any complaints on my part are simply unanswered.. The council knows our community is made up primarily of Nv. folks trying to avoid the heat of summer. But by golly our taxes betten not be late. This place is beautiful but the politics of it all is disgusting. Might of chosen some where else to build had I known. Taxation without representation at its best.
Dorado
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Such a scam. Why should the public pay for this? So many of these water projects take the public $$ and use it to subsidize private wealth and development. If the money was coming from the people that will benefit from the project, they would not be willing to front the ridiculous costs. If it such a good idea, why cant they raise the money themselves? Yes, water flows downhill toward money, but it is not flowing toward the people that are paying!!! That is before taking into account how the Colorado River is over allocated already, the mussel issue etc....
birdsnest
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Check out the executive director of the Kane County Water Conservancy District, Michael Noel. I guess it is a coincidence that he owns 1.2 million odollars worth of land that will be in the route of the current proposed path of the pipeline. Wonder when he purchased this desert land. Before or after he knew the path of the pipeline. He is a Utah State Representative and Director of the Water District in Kanab. Conflict of interest? Something fishy is going on. Investigation is ongoing. We all will be affected by the Lake Powell Pipeline and I hope the decision is based on facts,not bunk.
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PBH
Well-Known Member
Ask Wayne his opinion of Mike Noel....
(sorry Wayne - you don't have to respond to any inquiries about your personal opinion of him, fish hatcheries, land swaps, or the lack of paperwork that cost utah sportsmen over $1M)
Noel is the first to criticize the Feds, and he's also the first in line to collect his dry-land alfalfa subsidy check too. How the people of Kane County could continue to re-elect that criminal is crazy....welcome to rural Utah, where colors mean more than actions.
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