RichieW13
Active Member
I'm not sure what fees would be necessary, fair and reasonable.
But, why should an older boat have a lower fee than a newer boat?
NPS Proposed New Tiered Boating Fee Structure
- Thread starter nzaugg
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But, why should an older boat have a lower fee than a newer boat?
Michael Pyle
Well-Known Member
The larger boats already pay more. More fuel, services, local products, entry fees, etc..
If you want to charge fees based on lake usage how about increase the cost for the tour boats and the surf boats. They do more damage than anything.
I don’t think age of boat matters. And I have a 1997 Housebaot. Haha.
Mike
If you want to charge fees based on lake usage how about increase the cost for the tour boats and the surf boats. They do more damage than anything.
I don’t think age of boat matters. And I have a 1997 Housebaot. Haha.
Mike
Dangling Dooley
Well-Known Member
There wasn't enough to go around. It's a rare vintage afterall!
Marina Bum
Well-Known Member
Apologies in advance for the length, if you don't want to read it I understand
if you write a post like this you might be a lake nerd, Just say'nEvery vessel on the lake is required, in theory, to pay a lake use fee. That can be daily or annually. The annual pass has been a much more cost efficient option for regular users. The entrance gate is where you have been able to buy the annual pass, the gate attendants have been the enforces if you will. If a vehicle has a vessel in tow they would usually ask you how many days you are going to be on the lake. If it's more that a week they would usually suggest you buy the annual pass as it was a more cost effective option. It didn't matter if it was a jet ski, a runabout or a 101 foot super houseboat. I think the annual pass is $50 currently, a good value, a bone from our government for all us hard working peasant tax payers if you will.
That has been the tradition and the concept of the National Parks and Recreation areas since their inception, for over a hundred years, for the public good, for the preservation of and equal access to the great outdoors for all citizens. This new tiered super fee structure flies in the face of that tradition and original intention and it really ticks me off! It's just a blatant money grab on top of all the fees and taxes we already pay but targeting just some of us is the disturbing part.
Over the years I have moved so many houseboats in and out that I started pre buying the annual pass and displaying it port side by the registration numbers (it's required location) before each move. That way the attendant could see it and then the moving crew didn't have to sit and wait while I bought the pass and climbed up on their big rig to apply it to my boat. (Dangerous at any age)
Also if I got separated from the transport qcrew we weren't looking for and waiting on each other, we could just connect at the ramp.
You have been able to buy a sticker at any time, no vessel registration has been required because all boats have been equal, the use fee has been the same. Under the proposed tiered soak the rich scheme the longer your boat the higher the fees will be regardless of the vessels value, It's based on length but hits the longest vessels the hardest. (Super houseboats)
Three problems for Park Service
One: There has been little or no opportunity for boaters not passing through the gates with their houseboat to be reminded to buy the annual pass. I think for most owners it's been assumed that through already paying thousands or tens of thousands in moorage fees annually and having paid to get the boat in initially that they were in good standing on usage fees. Park Service will need to re-educate them; Everyone will need to start buying and applying stickers.
Two: Unless they start to print vessel registration numbers on the annual permit sticker as Az Game and Fish does for an annual registration tags (they match your vessel number, it's printed on the tag) Park Service will not be able to tie the purchase of a pass to your particular vessel.
If they expect a super boat to pay $3,600 a year they will need a way to ensure that they have paid up. No longer will you be able to just buy a generic pass at the gate unless owners are required to carry a receipt around. The onus would be on every moored houseboat owner to stop at the gate, show their registrations to verify vessel length and pay the appropriate fee. A record will need to be kept somehow at the gate so if the receipt goes missing it can be reissued. Is that their plan? Aren't the lines long enough already? How will it affect all the folks with runabouts? When they buy an annual pass will they have to show their registrations and carry the receipt around too? Right now you can buy a sticker for any purpose, it does not apply to any boat specifically, it's a quick transaction. If that changes lines will grow unless they have more lanes staffed.
Three: Enforcment will be interesting especially for houseboats. Park Service can't expect the big regressive fees to start being paid on a volunteer basis, they'll have to start policing and issuing tickets.
I'm lucky enough to have woken up on Lake Powell hundreds of times over dozens of years. I try to pay attention to everything in an attempt to become a more competent boater and Powell enthusiast and I'm still constantly learning; Like many of you I have a passion for this stuff. I can only remember seeing a houseboat underway being pulled over once and that was for a safety issue, a dozen young kids were utop literally hanging off the rafters and rails without life jackets, it was ridiculous. But that's the only time I can recall.
So other than a blatant safety issue like that what would be the rational to pull over a houseboat underway? What would be the pretext for the stop? bad steering? (Most Credit Card Captains drive poorly) Speeding? (at a max speed of 8 mph?) Drunk driving? Hard to spot when most folks steering is so bad. (Lol) If park service does begin to randomly pull over houseboats where will they do it? In the Maytag straights on a busy windy day? That will be interesting! Imagine a 101 foot boat adrift in the channel in the wind while they get the shakedown routine. "Papers please, where are your extinguishers, do your running lights work, have you been drinking or are you under the influence of any substance? "(If you've got a runabout You might know that routine) "Where is your sticker, where is your receipt? Stay adrift here while we write you a fat citation" really? Or will they come camp site to camp site? Will there be checkpoints at Marina exits? Or will they just start waking the docks taking notes and contacting houseboat owners demanding big payments and sticker compliance or else?
If they seek to enact this unequal fee scale and seek to enforce it will be a sad day for Lake Powell and the National Parks and Recreation areas in general. "All animals are equal it's just that some animals are more equal than others" Animal Farm
well, on Arizona Highways they figure new cars get driven more and it's a soak the rich proposition, it's Hewey P Long" them that can pay should" why should boats get charged more because they are bigger and more expensive? That to is a soak the rich Hewey P Long strategy. But, lower fees on older cars do help the budgets of poor people who predominantly drive older cars. Charging everyone of us more on a progressive scale won't help any of us have more lake access.
Our national Parks and Recreation areas should be sacrosanct. It's one of the best things the Government ever did. When I was coming up in the 70's and 80's it was free to use Lake Powell, they used to throw us hard working taxpaying peasants a bone. Seems like no one really thinks of us much anymore, just say'n. At only $50 a year they still kinda are, but it's the same equal fee for everyone. That was the ethos of the national parks, their founding purpose to promote and preserve the great out doors for everyone, so that it wouldn't all end up in private hands, for the enjoyment of everyone.if there is one place we should all stand as equals it's in enjoying our National Parks together. Making us unequal flies in the face of those founding premises and it sets a bad precedent. It's also unenforceable without structural changes and more employees which will only suck up and gains they hope to make in the revenue they'll send somewhere else anyway.
PS: I thought I had deleted that rambling post immediately, I was sick with a fever, and it was the written in the middle of the night. Thank you for reading at least part of it and being the only person to acknowledge it. I'm just super upset about them raising fees in a money grab. I don't envy others, I want what I have, I am enough, that's healthy. But I'm glad to live in a country where Super Boats are even possible for people, good for them. I'm starting to wonder if that's not old fashioned thinking these days.
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Just a reminder that the Press Release is a Request for Public Comment about the tiered pass proposal. Lots of good commentary in this thread. Please consider taking it to the next level by sharing your thoughts with the NPS.
RichieW13
Active Member
For vehicle registration, it makes more sense to me. Having a vehicle in most parts of the country is nearly a necessity. So basing registration on age/value is a way to implement a progressive tax.
But at Lake Powell, having a boat is not a necessity. So I don't think a progressive tax is quite as relevant. Not to mention, boat technology moves slowly, so there are still lots of nice 30+ year old boats out there.
Since boating is basically a luxury, it seems like the current flat fee system makes the most sense. I can't think of any reason that any particular types of boats incur more costs for the NPS than any others.
Marina Bum
Well-Known Member
Agreed, with both of you and how you enjoy public lands shouldn't matter. Exactly the point, pay the same fee and have at it. Fish, hike, kyak, sleep on the beach, boat, whatever. If you enter Yellowstone in a nice RV or a New Corvette should you pay a lot more than someone in a truck and camper or a Kia?
Is there a link to complain to Park Service on? Can somebody post that if it's not already up?
Closes in 24 days
nzaugg
Escalante-Class Member
Interestingly, if you show up at Zion NP in a RV or other oversized vehicle you have to pay an extra extra $15 to transit the tunnel because it requires a ranger escort. If the Halls Ferry is running, you also have to pay based on the length of your vehicle. Slip and buoy fees at Lake Powell are based on boat length and are paid monthly. This fee does potentially seem targeted at the launch and retrieve crowd since those boats also don’t pay for on the water fuel and further use significantly greater space on the launch ramps and causes significantly greater wear on the park roads and ramps due to the heavier trailer loads. Are the other boats on the lake subsidizing the business model of these services?
Rivergoer
Escalante-Class Member
Charging $15 for oversized vehicle is a far cry from paying $1,600 for oversized vessel (or double for a 27’ vessel).
The NRA is funded by tax dollars (us) and run by our elected government. It is OUR resource.
Why is it we’ve been involuntarily shut out of OUR public resource twice (once for political dispute over debt limit and once for “public safety” during the “pandemic”).
If funding is insufficient to properly run/maintain the NRA using rational user fees, privatize it and take back control from government.
The NRA is funded by tax dollars (us) and run by our elected government. It is OUR resource.
Why is it we’ve been involuntarily shut out of OUR public resource twice (once for political dispute over debt limit and once for “public safety” during the “pandemic”).
If funding is insufficient to properly run/maintain the NRA using rational user fees, privatize it and take back control from government.
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Michael Pyle
Well-Known Member
We pay $18,000 a year to rent space on the water in the park for our houseboat. Our slip fee should cover any park fees for the Housebaot. Any boat paying for yearly slip fee should not be paying a fee at the gate for a sticker.
We also Pay $10,000 per year for our 37ft boat to be in a slip.
So personally I pay $28,000 per year to have my boats on the lake, the lake that my tax dollars paid for.
That should cover any fees to be in the lake and use services.
On average we also pay over $20,000 annually in over priced and highly taxed fuel on the lake that is supposed to pay for lake services.
And now they want to take even more money from me to be on the lake. Absolutely ridiculous.
Oh and to make that $48,000 I have to have $100,000 of income that I pay over half of to the government in taxes. You add up state income, federal income, fuel, property, and sales tax I am already taxed way beyond what I should be by the very government that now wants to charge me to use the Parks I and others help pay for? Come on. When will people wake up.
No amount of tax will ever help the government do their job.
Yea this subject has me fired up. Haha sorry.
Mike
We also Pay $10,000 per year for our 37ft boat to be in a slip.
So personally I pay $28,000 per year to have my boats on the lake, the lake that my tax dollars paid for.
That should cover any fees to be in the lake and use services.
On average we also pay over $20,000 annually in over priced and highly taxed fuel on the lake that is supposed to pay for lake services.
And now they want to take even more money from me to be on the lake. Absolutely ridiculous.
Oh and to make that $48,000 I have to have $100,000 of income that I pay over half of to the government in taxes. You add up state income, federal income, fuel, property, and sales tax I am already taxed way beyond what I should be by the very government that now wants to charge me to use the Parks I and others help pay for? Come on. When will people wake up.
No amount of tax will ever help the government do their job.
Yea this subject has me fired up. Haha sorry.
Mike
Joy
Active Member
I wonder how many park passes they sell each year on top of boat fees? When you consider that the multiple owner boats (I have no clue how many of the big boats are single owner) require a park pass for each vehicle or group…the $$$’s add up. They make it sound as if they’re doing us all a favor by allowing us on our own public lands, from welfare ranchers to welfare boaters and welfare fishing.
Give em’ and inch and they’ll take a mile…in this case, give them a square foot and they’ll take an acre (or a section).
Give em’ and inch and they’ll take a mile…in this case, give them a square foot and they’ll take an acre (or a section).
Tiff Mapel
Escalante-Class Member
Since the website link to comment takes you right back to the same page, I had to do some digging to find where to actually make your comments. Found it!!
National Park Service - PEPC - Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (GLCA) is proposing a fee rate increase for boat passes -Submit Comments
Tiff
National Park Service - PEPC - Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (GLCA) is proposing a fee rate increase for boat passes -Submit Comments
Tiff
Michael Pyle
Well-Known Member
I sent a comment in, but it scares me to poke the bear. I feel like I am questioning the Mofia. I dont want to get cement boots. LOL Hopefully I don't get pulled over and hassled this weekend for opening my mouth.
Mike
Mike
nzaugg
Escalante-Class Member
When they proposed fee surges based on visitation date for Zion, it was cancelled due to community outcry. They now have a reservation system instead. My bet would be without a tiered fee they will simply jack up all the fees to make it uniform and collect the same amount.
Rivergoer
Escalante-Class Member
That’s fine, proposal for vessels up to 26’ is to bump annual fees from $50 to $60 (20%). Scrap the tiers, apply that same rate fairly to all vessels regardless of length and be done with it (…and perhaps staff the gates sunrise to sunset more than 5 months/year, the self-pay kiosks are a joke).
Marina Bum
Well-Known Member
The link Tiff posted worked well to post my feedback to NPS about this tiered increase in the annual pass. If you haven't submitted your feedback please do, it was easy and only took a few minutes. It's only open for two more weeks, please weigh in. Thanks
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