Not meant to be just another Surfers Vs All Other Boaters rant
- Thread starter Marina Bum
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Marina Bum
Escalante-Class Member
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What it does is it gives the rest of us is a talking point to go out and ask for compliance with and to. And to me I think that's what Surfers are against.
Well, one I think Ryan can speak for himself to clarify. Two, well if a 500 foot from shore regulation is unenforceable than how does it affect Surfers anyway?
What it does is it gives the rest of us is a talking point to go out and ask for compliance with and to. And to me I think that's what Surfers are against.
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WyoRado
Well-Known Member
Marina Bum, I get what you are after, and I do think a larger buffer or even what has been mentioned numerous times in the past (tow sports regulated to the main channel), either would drastically improve the experience for everybody. But without enforcement, they are useless laws piling on top of other non-enforced laws.
Surf boats are not the problem. The lack of common courtesy and decency for others is the number one issue. A 12,000# boat creating a 3' wave is just the latest way of exhibiting it.
Surf boats are not the problem. The lack of common courtesy and decency for others is the number one issue. A 12,000# boat creating a 3' wave is just the latest way of exhibiting it.
svivian
Escalante-Class Member
Thats all fine and dandy, but without enforcement it wont change anything. Until you start seeing Ranger boats staged every 5 - 10 miles along the lake you will not see a difference.
Reference the fishing license ticket thread and how many over 20-50 years of fishing lake powell have been checked.
Im not saying its a bad idea, but without the resources to back it youre not gaining the ground you think you are.
svivian
Escalante-Class Member
In regard to your "speaking for ryan" comment, posts like these are what prompted me to respond. I think you are letting your frustration towards the situation affect how you are reading and responding to conversation.
The first section of the quote above is a bit much considering this thread was not supposed to be a rant. Just my .02
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
This is exactly what I’m saying. Passing new laws that also won’t be enforced will do nothing to improve the situation.
I’d also say that 500’ is unreasonable, unenforceable and for most people, it’s unverifiable. Next time you’re out anywhere, boat or otherwise, ask 5 people around you how far exactly 500’ is and you will get 6 different answers, none of which are close to being correct if you actually verify it with a range finisher.
And if people aren’t honoring the 150’ reg why would you expect them to respect a greater distance?
Not all problems have a government solution. And I don’t think most people would even agree on what this “problem” is. Most of regulations against surfing in the mid west have to do with shore damage, sea walls, docks, etc. none of that is relevant at Powell.
So what problem exactly are you trying to solve? Is it property damage? There are already regulations about being responsible for your own wake.
Not every problem is solvable by another regulation. And some don’t have a reasonable solution.
So what’s my answer? Get further away from the marinas. Carefully pick your camping spot. If it really bothers you that much, change the time of year you visit the lake.
You also have to advocate for yourself. If you experience damage to your boat caused by someone else why wouldn’t you (you meaning anyone) not take the initiative of actually contacting the offending party and taking it up directly with them? Uncomfortable, probably, but there is 0 chance I’d let someone damage my property and not address it.
So I’ll ask you @Marina Bum a direct question. Do you REALLY have any expectation that a change in the distance regulation from 150’ to 500’ would have any significant effect on what you see at the lake? Because history shows it won’t.
Marina Bum
Escalante-Class Member
Yes I do. i've never relied on Park Service to save me. It would give your fellow boaters something to remind surfers of themselves. Right now if you guys are surfing right behind us at 150 all we can do is testosterone displeasure. You guys have to know what that dies to smaller craft and boats on a beach! We just come off like old guys screaming "Get Off My Lawn." If we had a regulation to go out and remind them of that's how it could make a big difference for the rest of us.
Phillbo
Escalante-Class Member
I've learned the power of video proof and now have a dedicated Go Pro that I keep in the boat and mount once we make camp.
When our damage occurred one of the boat owners was swift enough to break out his phone and capture the activity and registration numbers. The next morning he made a slow pass at the jerks campsite and attempting to make contact with the owners and documenting the houseboat name and registration number as well. He was told to Eff off and so he did.
Once our trip was over we contacted the Rangers at Wahweap. While they could not issue any citation (did not care about that), they did review the video and a report was filed. When the house boat returned they made contact with them and were provided the persons information owning the boat that was damaged the most (happens to be a very successful personal injury attorney and had blood in his teeth). And was asked to make contact.
So, while there is not likely to be anyone on site to call or enforce any laws, you still have option. Document and report. While it may do no good, having a cop on the dock giving a stern warning to some entitled azz may fire a synapse if his/her brain just enough to make them remember next time.
Only funny part about the whole situation was the azz contacted my buddy and wanted to cover the damages out of pocket. My buddy forced him to file a claim with his insurance so there would be a money chain etc... I was a legal trick and the Azz may have lost his coverage
JFRCalifornia
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Here’s where a poorly enforced regulation can make a difference. Let’s say there was a rule that said to maintain a 500-foot distance. No rangers are ever around. One day a wake boat does what it does 150 feet from an anchored boat and causes damage to that boat.
Well, if the injured party wants to sue the wake boat owner, he now has the basis for collecting damages, assuming he can substantiate the distance and facts of the case. Without the rule in place, this is not possible.
I’m not advocating frivolous lawsuits, just saying that laws exist for a good reason, even if not consistently enforced. It’s similar to running a stop sign. Many people roll through them, or sometimes just ignore them when no cops are around. But if there’s an accident, we have the basis for establishing fault.
Well, if the injured party wants to sue the wake boat owner, he now has the basis for collecting damages, assuming he can substantiate the distance and facts of the case. Without the rule in place, this is not possible.
I’m not advocating frivolous lawsuits, just saying that laws exist for a good reason, even if not consistently enforced. It’s similar to running a stop sign. Many people roll through them, or sometimes just ignore them when no cops are around. But if there’s an accident, we have the basis for establishing fault.
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svivian
Escalante-Class Member
For reading material see below from state of Utah boating Regulations. Ive also screenshotted pertinent information.
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
This is something that should be done more often (or actually anytime damage occurs). No new regulations needed.I've learned the power of video proof and now have a dedicated Go Pro that I keep in the boat and mount once we make camp.
When our damage occurred one of the boat owners was swift enough to break out his phone and capture the activity and registration numbers. The next morning he made a slow pass at the jerks campsite and attempting to make contact with the owners and documenting the houseboat name and registration number as well. He was told to Eff off and so he did.
Once our trip was over we contacted the Rangers at Wahweap. While they could not issue any citation (did not care about that), they did review the video and a report was filed. When the house boat returned they made contact with them and were provided the persons information owning the boat that was damaged the most (happens to be a very successful personal injury attorney and had blood in his teeth). And was asked to make contact.
So, while there is not likely to be anyone on site to call or enforce any laws, you still have option. Document and report. While it may do no good, having a cop on the dock giving a stern warning to some entitled azz may fire a synapse if his/her brain just enough to make them remember next time.
Only funny part about the whole situation was the azz contacted my buddy and wanted to cover the damages out of pocket. My buddy forced him to file a claim with his insurance so there would be a money chain etc... I was a legal trick and the Azz may have lost his coverage
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
So, are you worried about property damage from them being at 150’, as that has already been covered.
The much easier solution is to pick a different camp site where there won’t be anyone throwing waves behind you.
We used to always camp in Escalante and Iceberg. As the lake got more crowded, boats got bigger, wake sports became popular, we mostly abandoned those spots and have found other places to camp. Should we have to do that? Probably not. But I also should be taller. Control the controllable.
Getting people to sign off on a 500’ buffer zone around other boats is incredibly unlikely. Arbitrarily applied to one type of boat/sport and effectively shutting down the whole lake. But if that is a windmill one wants to tilt at, have at it.
I’m sure glad this isn’t your typical rant that comes up multiple times a year and goes nowhere…..
svivian
Escalante-Class Member
What is your solution to enforce this? I think the idea is acceptable, heck lake pleasant does a great job keeping the northern arms free of wake boats. However, the difference is their enforcement presence is there every day.
How do you enforce a 180 mile long lake with over 2000 miles of shoreline?
RichieW13
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say it's arbitrary. It's applied to the type of boat that is causing the wakes.
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Ok, first off, please take a step back and show a little respect and decorum. Treating me like someone who would intentionally cause damage to someone's property is getting old. I don't think you would do that to me in person, why do you find it acceptable to do it behind your keyboard? I have a feeling that the way you are proceeding will get this shut down. That doesn't happen when the comments are not attacks.
In response to the assertion, there is no universal agreement or logic about a personal opinion about what should be a reasonable distance from shore for surfing,, especially when that 500' limit would eliminate the vast majority of the lake.
And the question for enforcement continues to be dodged. Come up with a reasonable approach and you might garner more support.
If it isn't property damage, what is the main complaint? That you aren't able to enjoy the lake like you want? So the answer is to restrict others from how they want to use the lake?
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
So any boat that causes a large wake is going to be restricted?
Marina Bum
Escalante-Class Member
I never mentioned property damage, JFR California tried to give you an example. Two things you seem to be unable or unwilling to answer are do you think Surf boat sized wakes carry great energy 150 feet from shore? And what would be wrong with a change in regulation to 500 feet? It would greatly increase the quiet enjoyment of the lake for the rest of us. Maybe Park Service won't be there to ticket anyone, that's not the point it gives me the regulation to go out and remind the pilot of his minimum distance. How would that negatively impact your surfing experience on Lake powell? I'd really like to hear that
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Are you even reading my responses, because I've answered at least some of them multiple times.
Do I think surf wakes carry great energy at 150'? ANY boat over say 5000 pounds that moves at a speed above waveless creates a large wake. The heavier the boat, the bigger the wake. That one is pretty much impossible to not agree with.
What should the required distance be? I don't think you will have agreement on that. Is it more than 150'? Some would agree with that, many others won't.
What is wrong with a change to the regulations to 500'? Simple. If you understand how BIG 500' is, that would eliminate the majority of the lake, including the main channel. You might as well outlaw all wakes at that point. So no, I don't support that.
I'll be direct on this one. I care as much about how you enjoy the lake as you care about how surfers do. There are options given above about how folks who want a "quiet enjoyment of the lake" would accomplish that and not eliminate surfing, but that has been ignored. We are out on the lake multiple times/days per year and have not had conflict following above advice.
I personally would not advocate for any individual to "play park ranger" when something is an annoyance to them. Sure sounds like a good way to ruin your own vacation, and says a lot about an individual hat takes that kind of action when injury/property damage aren't involved, but to each their own.
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Just a few snips to show repeated answers to the quest for solutions and why 500' isn't reasonable....
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