The Latest on Dangling Rope...

10 gallons of diesel still almost cost a "Fun Tag" ($100 Bill) at Antelope Point this morning. My brother is kind, gracious, and takes things in stride.

Hopefully whatever accommodations are made intralake keep fuel prices below double-digit numbers. For me, I would think it fun if some intralake facility were called something like; "Buoy 55" , "Nun 55", or "Anchor 55" (e.g., insert whatever main channel river mile it happened to be nearby) would be fun and semi-meaningful connotation, but that's just me???
Again, would just like to see fuel not reach double-digits...lol.
Latest gas prices here. And this is an actual quote from the Aramark website about gas availability:

"With convenient fueling docks at our marinas throughout Lake Powell, you’ll enjoy the peace of mind that comes with knowing just how far you are from a fill up."

Convenient? Without Dangling Rope? Peace of mind because you're far from a fill up? I'm not sure if they're trying to be funny on purpose, or if they're just clueless enough not to recognize the unintentional irony of their ambiguously-worded message.

 
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Latest gas prices here. And this is an actual quote from the Aramark website about gas prices and availability:

"With convenient fueling docks at our marinas throughout Lake Powell, you’ll enjoy the peace of mind that comes with knowing just how far you are from a fill up."

Convenient? Without Dangling Rope? Peace of mind because you're far from a fill up? I'm not sure if they're trying to be funny on purpose, or if they're just clueless enough not to recognize the unintentional irony of their ambiguously-worded message.

My biggest issue with the gas from Aramark comes down to quality rather than price. I know it will be $2 more at the marina. That is a given. But why can't we get the fuel we really need? They are selling 87 octane E-10. Their tanks are known to distribute water when you get to the dregs. Our old houseboat Yamaha outboards had issues after running for 45 minutes on the Bullfrog fuel due to ethanol content and those engines were brand new at the time (2013). Any boat with a supercharger doesn't like 87 octane. Then to only have one fueling location on the north end and have it 4 miles from the channel is a real problem.
 
For all the NIMBYs who think a lack of crowds at Lake Powell is a good thing,
I don't believe a lack of "mid-lake" marina has reduced the overall number of visitors. It has merely increased the density of users nearer the existing marinas. I can't imagine cancelling a houseboat trip simply because I couldn't refuel at DR. If it were me, I would either change my destination or carry extra fuel.
 
Four pages and counting... Who would have thought a small marina in a remote section of Lake Powell would be so controversial? Personally I'm conflicted. I was up there in June 2022, brought extra fuel to make the round trip from AP to RB. I think I saw one boat above Rock Creek, it was amazing, almost felt like I left earth for a few hours. The practical side of me says its a good idea to have mid lake services despite the increased traffic. Im sure there are many stories of DR saving the day for many folks over the years.
 
I don't believe a lack of "mid-lake" marina has reduced the overall number of visitors. It has merely increased the density of users nearer the existing marinas. I can't imagine cancelling a houseboat trip simply because I couldn't refuel at DR. If it were me, I would either change my destination or carry extra fuel.
I think this is exactly right. Recent visitation statistics bear this out. To keep it simple, I'll just look at what's happened since 2017 (I'm not counting this year, because the data is still incomplete). Here is overall visitation in the GCNRA from 2017-22, which include boaters and non-boaters alike:

2017 - 4.5 million
2018 - 4.2 million
2019 - 4.3 million
2020 - 2.5 million
2021 - 3.1 million
2022 - 2.8 million

The main storyline that jumps out at you there is that GCNRA had its highest visitation ever from 2017-19 (it had never exceeded 4 million until 2017), and then COVID hit in 2020. No shock that visitation fell off the table that year, but only to pre-2017 levels, which were usually in the 2-2.5 million range all the way back to 1994. So you figure, correctly, that visitation would bounce back in 2021, and it did--up about 20%. Okay, so what about 2022? Why didn't the rise continue? Well, the 10% drop in 2022 turns out to be no real surprise either, since in almost every year when the lake drops significantly, so does visitation. This happened like clockwork in 2000-04, 2012, 2013, and 2018, all of which saw the lake dropping fast.

So now let's get to John P Funk's hypothesis. Remember that Dangling Rope went out of commission in May 2021. Well, even though it was out for the rest of the summer, my guess is that by then, most people already had their summer plans in place. If they were planning to leave from Wahweap, they were still leaving from there, and the same with Bullfrog. But as 2022 rolled around, and DR showed no signs of life, a lot of people had time to change their summer plans. Some either chose not to visit at all (mostly because of declining lake levels), or if they did visit, limited their boating to be closer to the marinas because DR was out of commission. And of course, anecdotally, we know how empty mid-lake became in 2022 (and 2023 for that matter). But at the same time, we also sensed how crowded it became from Wahweap to Rock Creek. The data tell an interesting story:

Change in all visitation to GCNRA from 2021 to 2022: down 10%

No real surprise there, with the drought in full swing, COVID still in the back of some people's minds, and boaters nervous about DR, that put a damper on overall visitation. But look at what happens when you focus on just recreational trips, meaning mostly boat trips (as opposed to visiting places like Horseshoe Bend, Lees Ferry, or sightseeing on the lake). The boaters still came out, with no real drop off from 2021:

Change in recreational trips (mostly boating) lakewide from 2021 to 2022: up 2%

Now you'd think that the steady boating numbers would be reflected evenly from any marina on the lake. But no, it was heavily weighted toward Wahweap (and probably Antelope Point too, but NPS doesn't specifically track that marina). Here's what you found:

Change in recreational visits originating from Wahweap from 2021 to 2022: up 33% (!!)

Wow. What is that saying? I think it's saying that a lot more boating people in 2022 wanted to go to Powell, and the boaters came, but opted for shorter trips (more day trips) focused closer to Wahweap, likely because of the lack of fuel up the lake, and to some extent, fear of declining lake levels. And so you ended up with huge crowds at the south end, and almost nobody in midlake. And as for Bullfrog, it was smaller crowds than usual, mostly near the marina. The remoteness of Bullfrog and uncertain infrastructure there will always keep crowds down, and they don’t seem to be coming back.

So really, the only people really traveling to midlake (say, between Rock Creek and the Escalante) were the few very well prepared folks with long-range fuel capacity (mostly out of Wahweap), and they're able to do it either because of the very expensive boat they own, or because they came ready with lots of gas cans and know how to deal with emergencies. And I'll bet a majority of those folks are contributors to this website.

So while a few folks here on this site are adamant about keeping midlake fuel closed down, I'd argue that's really not a good idea. Besides the safety issues of being stranded midlake common to the less experienced, especially renters (plus those rental boats are not always reliable), and the rescue efforts needed to deal with those incidents, the resulting heavy boat concentration closer to Wahweap also creates its own safety issues. That's especially true when the Cut is closed. It also creates an environment where people fight over beaches, or wake boats are more concentrated closer to those beaches or other boats, creating not just safety hazards, but emotional tension and possible violence. It's just too crowded downlake without DR or its equivalent in place.

I can tell you with certainty that as a renter, until the midlake fuel issue is resolved, I'm only renting out of Bullfrog. It's an extra 3 hours for me to drive there, but totally worth it to avoid those problems. And from Bullfrog, you can feasibly go north, turn around, refuel, and go south. The Escalante is in range. You can see a lot more lake without taking extraordinary efforts to bring gas, and you don't have to hunker down past Antelope Point, through the Straits, a sea of wake boats, and just general summer boating chaos just to get to a little peace and quiet.

It's either that, or you just go in the fall. If you can get the time off to do that. Not everyone can.

I love the south end, a lot of my favorite canyons are there, but without DR that part of the lake has become a summer zoo, just a place to get through, a few hours of a bumpy ride, gritting the teeth, and hoping for a quiet corner at the end of the day. Not my idea of fun. Probably others (who can only go in the summer) feel the same way. Now at the same time, I (and others who are prepared) know it's the way to the fantastic midlake canyons between Rock Creek and the Escalante, and for most a Page base is a lot easier logistically than a Bullfrog base. That means for those who have fast boats who want to go uplake, they will go fast, and through the crowds of boats in a shrunken Padre Bay. A recipe for conflict, and sometimes not safe. For others, without DR they just don't try to go that far, because they just don't have the means or ability to get there. And so they're stuck in the crowds along Padre or Gunsight, or are subject to the occasional horror story of being squeezed out of their campsite along Labyrinth Bay by a few rude houseboat flotillas. Should those people who want to go uplake be excluded so it becomes a personal playground for just a few? That idea runs counter to the whole concept behind the GCNRA...

NPS needs to prioritize a midlake refueling stop.
 
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JFR love ya but…

If a new Dangling Rope requires a new EIS it will never fly in the current political environment. Especially in the day of the WEF when you will own nothing and be happy not to mention the projected death of the internal combustion engine and all fossil fuels. It will never make it “out of committee”.
 
JFR love ya but…

If a new Dangling Rope requires a new EIS it will never fly in the current political environment. Especially in the day of the WEF when you will own nothing and be happy not to mention the projected death of the internal combustion engine and all fossil fuels. It will never make it “out of committee”.
Well, NEPA is always a little bit of a black hole, but it's no reason not to try to make the right thing happen. As a NEPA consultant myself, there's a few creative ways to shorten the process if NPS chooses to go that way. The threshold for preparing an EIS is vague, but applies to "major federal actions" that could have a significant impact on the human environment that are either federally funded, on federal land, or led by a federal agency. That could obviously cover a lot of things. In practice, it happens with larger controversial projects, especially ones that benefit from studying multiple alternatives. Ultimately it's up to the lead agency, in this case NPS, to decide whether or not to prepare an EIS, or to prepare an Environmental Assessment, a much simpler document (and shorter process).

But there's also a much simpler approach to NEPA compliance, depending on the project, and that's the Categorical Exclusion (CE). Each federal agency has its own list of applicable CE's. For the NPS, I can see where two different CE's could conceivably apply. The first is this:

"Replacement in kind of minor structures and facilities with little or no change in location, capacity or appearance."

That's a little bit of a stretch, especially considering the new facility won't be in the same location. But if you define the location as "Lake Powell" (which NPS could do), and the facility is less extensive than the old marina, you could make an argument for this one.

Maybe the better fit is this one:

"Construction or rehabilitation in previously disturbed or developed areas, required to meet health or safety regulations, or to meet requirements for making facilities accessible to the handicapped."

In this case, the key argument is whether the new facility is required to meet safety regulations. Lake Powell is already a "disturbed area", and so this one could apply using that test. But again, it's a question of what NPS feels comfortable doing, but if this one turns on the safety issue, which is related to the timeliness of the action, this is a potentially defensible approach.

So we'll see. But NPS has some NEPA compliance options, if they choose to use them... they just need to hire me.
 
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I think this is exactly right. Recent visitation statistics bear this out. To keep it simple, I'll just look at what's happened since 2018 (I'm not counting this year, because the data is still incomplete). Here is overall visitation in the GCNRA from 2017-22, which include boaters and non-boaters alike:

2017 - 4.5 million
2018 - 4.2 million
2019 - 4.3 million
2020 - 2.5 million
2021 - 3.1 million
2022 - 2.8 million

The main storyline that jumps out at you there is that GCNRA had its highest visitation ever from 2017-19 (it had never exceeded 4 million until 2017), and then COVID hit in 2020. No shock that visitation fell off the table that year, but only to pre-2017 levels, which were usually in the 2-2.5 million range all the way back to 1994. So you figure, correctly, that visitation would bounce back in 2021, and it was--up about 20%. Okay, so what about 2022? Why didn't the rise continue? Well, the 10% drop in 2022 turns out to be no real surprise either, since in almost every year when the lake drops significantly, so does visitation. This happened like clockwork in 2000-04, 2012, 2013, and 2018, all of which saw the lake dropping fast.

So now let's get to John P Funk's hypothesis. Remember that Dangling Rope went out of commission in May 2021. Well, even though it was out for the rest of the summer, my guess is that by then, most people already had their summer plans in place. If they were planning to leave from Wahweap, they were still leaving from there, and the same with Bullfrog. But as 2022 rolled around, and DR showed no signs of life, a lot of people had time to change their summer plans. Some either chose not to visit at all (mostly because of declining lake levels), or if they did visit, limited their boating to be closer to the marinas because DR was out of commission. And of course, anecdotally, we know how empty mid-lake became in 2022 (and 2023 for that matter). But at the same time, we also sensed how crowded it became from Wahweap to Rock Creek. The data tell an interesting story:

Change in all visitation to GCNRA from 2021 to 2022: down 10%

No real surprise there, with the drought in full swing, COVID still in the back of some people's minds, and boaters nervous about DR, that put a damper on overall visitation. But look at what happens when you focus on just recreational trips, meaning mostly boat trips (as opposed to visiting places like Horseshoe Bend, Lees Ferry, or sightseeing on the lake). The boaters still came out, with no real drop off from 2021:

Change in recreational trips (mostly boating) lakewide from 2021 to 2022: up 2%

Now you'd think that the steady boating numbers would be reflected evenly from any marina on the lake. But no, it was heavily weighted toward Wahweap (and probably Antelope Point too, but NPS doesn't specifically track that marina). Here's what you found:

Change in recreational visits originating from Wahweap from 2021 to 2022: up 33% (!!)

Wow. What is that saying? I think it's saying that a lot more boating people in 2022 wanted to go to Powell, and the boaters came, but opted for shorter trips (more day trips) focused closer to Wahweap, likely because of the lack of fuel up the lake, and to some extent, fear of declining lake levels. And so you ended up with huge crowds at the south end, and almost nobody in midlake. And as for Bullfrog, it was just the usual smaller crowds, mostly near the marina. The remoteness of Bullfrog and uncertain infrastructure there will always keep crowds down.

So really, the only people really traveling to midlake (say, between Rock Creek and the Escalante) were the few very well prepared folks with long-range fuel capacity (mostly out of Wahweap), and they're able to do it either because of the very expensive boat they own, or because they came ready with lots of gas cans and know how to deal with emergencies. And I'll bet a majority of those folks are contributors to this website.

So while a few folks here on this site are adamant about keeping midlake fuel closed down, I'd argue that's really not a good idea. Besides the safety issues of being stranded midlake common to the less experienced, especially renters (plus those rental boats are not always reliable), and the rescue efforts needed to deal with those incidents, the resulting heavy boat concentration closer to Wahweap also creates its own safety issues. That's especially true when the Cut is closed. It also creates an environment where people fight over beaches, or wake boats are more concentrated closer to those beaches or other boats, creating not just safety hazards, but emotional tension and possible violence. It's just too crowded downlake without DR or its equivalent in place.

I can tell you with certainty that as a renter, until the midlake fuel issue is resolved, I'm only renting out of Bullfrog. It's an extra 3 hours for me to drive there, but totally worth it to avoid those problems. And from Bullfrog, you can feasibly go north, turn around, refuel, and go south. The Escalante is in range. You can see a lot more lake without taking extraordinary efforts to bring gas, and you don't have to hunker down past Antelope Point, through the Straits, a sea of wake boats, and just general summer boating chaos just to get to a little peace and quiet.

It's either that, or you just go in the fall. If you can get the time off to do that. Not everyone can.

I love the south end, a lot of my favorite canyons are there, but without DR that part of the lake has become a summer zoo, just a place to get through, a few hours of a bumpy ride, gritting the teeth, and hoping for a quiet corner at the end of the day. Not my idea of fun. Probably others (who can only go in the summer) feel the same way. Now at the same time, I (and others who are prepared) know it's the way to the fantastic midlake canyons between Rock Creek and the Escalante, and for most a Page base is a lot easier logistically than a Bullfrog base. That means for those who have fast boats who want to go uplake, they will go fast, and through the crowds of boats in a shrunken Padre Bay. A recipe for conflict, and sometimes not safe. For others, without DR they just don't try to go that far, because they just don't have the means or ability to get there. And so they're stuck in the crowds along Padre or Gunsight, or are subject to the occasional horror story of being squeezed out of their campsite along Labyrinth Bay by a few rude houseboat flotillas. Should those people who want to go uplake be excluded so it becomes a personal playground for just a few? That idea runs counter to the whole concept behind the GCNRA...

NPS needs to prioritize a midlake refueling stop.
Appreciate the data. I’m remembering the crowds of the 80’s and 90’s at Bullfrog, and a time when not only was the infrastructure reliable, it was growing and being improved every year. That investment completely stopped, I suppose related to the fact that electricity has to be made expensively by generators. Bullfrog now looks like a ghost town compared to the summer crowds at that time. Losing Dangling Rope makes that even more extreme.
 
Love this thread....:)

SO......Best case scenario....even if the stars aligned....it wouldn't be until at least 2025 before there could be a mid lake fueling station?

Thoughts?

Bet Waterman's itching for another WW contest.....he's like that......

:cool:
 
A couple comments/observations. My first trip to Powell was in 1978. And we’ve gone pretty much every year since.

For the last 15ish years we’ve done multiple trips per year. Always on the north end.

First, I put zero faith in any published visitation numbers. The entrance gate up north being open when we come in (or leave) is the exception. It’s been open maybe twice during our last 10 trips.

And for those that say they may get numbers from their ANS inspections, I don’t know how that would be accurate either. They don’t consistently ask that question, and when they do, my answer is always 2, as it’s just me and my wife in the truck when we go through.

Anecdotally speaking, our July trip this year seemed less busy than last at the boat ramp. But we used the Exec ramp, and it seems most of the traffic was back at the main ramp.

We went to the San Juan, and that seemed as busy as it was pre Covid.

Coming back once we reached Rincon, there seemed to be MORE boats than usual.

Services up north leave a lot to be desired. I know some boats have moved south, but there still is a waiting list for the slips, so it can’t have been a huge shift.

My feeling is also that it is a small (but vocal, at least here) minority of users that are against replacing Dangling Rope.

I also think whatever is posted here has little or no effect on policy. If you feel strongly one way or another about this or any subject, you need to do more than vent here. Contact Aramark. Contact NPS. Contact the local elected officials. Contact media. I know some have done that to become a voice for the lake (thanks JFR and Tiff to name a few). But most don’t. And while you may not effect change by contacting those above, you’re guaranteed to not make change by just posting here.
 
A couple comments/observations. My first trip to Powell was in 1978. And we’ve gone pretty much every year since.

For the last 15ish years we’ve done multiple trips per year. Always on the north end.

First, I put zero faith in any published visitation numbers. The entrance gate up north being open when we come in (or leave) is the exception. It’s been open maybe twice during our last 10 trips.

And for those that say they may get numbers from their ANS inspections, I don’t know how that would be accurate either. They don’t consistently ask that question, and when they do, my answer is always 2, as it’s just me and my wife in the truck when we go through.

Anecdotally speaking, our July trip this year seemed less busy than last at the boat ramp. But we used the Exec ramp, and it seems most of the traffic was back at the main ramp.

We went to the San Juan, and that seemed as busy as it was pre Covid.

Coming back once we reached Rincon, there seemed to be MORE boats than usual.

Services up north leave a lot to be desired. I know some boats have moved south, but there still is a waiting list for the slips, so it can’t have been a huge shift.

My feeling is also that it is a small (but vocal, at least here) minority of users that are against replacing Dangling Rope.

I also think whatever is posted here has little or no effect on policy. If you feel strongly one way or another about this or any subject, you need to do more than vent here. Contact Aramark. Contact NPS. Contact the local elected officials. Contact media. I know some have done that to become a voice for the lake (thanks JFR and Tiff to name a few). But most don’t. And while you may not effect change by contacting those above, you’re guaranteed to not make change by just posting here.
Great post, and I agree with your statement that 'you’re guaranteed to not make change by just posting here'.

However WW does provide a forum for folks to get stuff off their chest, & see what other rational Lake Powell folks think.....and......here's the big one.....be directed/educated to other venues where their opinions may 'count'.

Which you eloquently did by directing folks who feel strongly either way should make their thoughts known to the 'powers that be'.

WW continues to be the best LP educational site, IMHO.

Regarding mid lake fueling: My take: It's ALWAYS about the almighty dollar$$$.

If they can sell enough $10+ a gallon gas to make it pencil out.........it's a gonna happen.

Doesn't make it bad, or good, it's just economics.

Not sure if they pencil in the root beer float revenue tho.....

😋
 
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Here is overall visitation in the GCNRA from 2017-22, which include boaters and non-boaters alike:

2017 - 4.5 million
2018 - 4.2 million
2019 - 4.3 million
2020 - 2.5 million
2021 - 3.1 million
2022 - 2.8 million

The main storyline that jumps out at you there is that GCNRA had its highest visitation ever from 2017-19 (it had never exceeded 4 million until 2017)
I think a lot of this had to do with the economy.
Screenshot_20230731-185206_Samsung Internet.jpg
 
A couple comments/observations. My first trip to Powell was in 1978. And we’ve gone pretty much every year since.

For the last 15ish years we’ve done multiple trips per year. Always on the north end.

First, I put zero faith in any published visitation numbers. The entrance gate up north being open when we come in (or leave) is the exception. It’s been open maybe twice during our last 10 trips.

And for those that say they may get numbers from their ANS inspections, I don’t know how that would be accurate either. They don’t consistently ask that question, and when they do, my answer is always 2, as it’s just me and my wife in the truck when we go through.

Anecdotally speaking, our July trip this year seemed less busy than last at the boat ramp. But we used the Exec ramp, and it seems most of the traffic was back at the main ramp.

We went to the San Juan, and that seemed as busy as it was pre Covid.

Coming back once we reached Rincon, there seemed to be MORE boats than usual.

Services up north leave a lot to be desired. I know some boats have moved south, but there still is a waiting list for the slips, so it can’t have been a huge shift.

My feeling is also that it is a small (but vocal, at least here) minority of users that are against replacing Dangling Rope.

I also think whatever is posted here has little or no effect on policy. If you feel strongly one way or another about this or any subject, you need to do more than vent here. Contact Aramark. Contact NPS. Contact the local elected officials. Contact media. I know some have done that to become a voice for the lake (thanks JFR and Tiff to name a few). But most don’t. And while you may not effect change by contacting those above, you’re guaranteed to not make change by just posting here.
Visitation estimates are based on in-road sensors. I don't think they work well, since I know for a fact that some months have grossly undercounted, simply because me and those with me made up 3/4 of the visitors to Halls one month.

Clearly visitation has dropped at Bullfrog since the 1990s. There are many reasons why. The biggest and best houseboats all wound up on the south end due to the superior support infrastructure. It has always been more difficult to get workers on the north end. NPS and Aramark have severely underinvested in the area, leaving people to drive their expensive boats down dirt roads, with a hotel that is crumbling, and no/minimal restaurant support. It gets worse every year.
 
I’ve stayed there several times, it has full hookups, but is kinda dusty and basic dirt sites,
It’s ok, not great, but have electricity for air conditioning. And a table. And run by Aramark and costs maybe $50 per night
Now the federal park has great sites and really flat concrete but no power or water, and cost maybe $12
So depending on time of year and needs for air conditioning.
 
it would be really great if they would put electric hookups at the Park Service campground at Bullfrog
then you wouldn't need to run generators. I was there this last week of April and the camp host site in loop A looks to have water and power.
Just for the heck of it I took my voltmeter to see if the power was turned on in that one site, but sadly no.
 
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