The critical coal plant Trump may not be able to save

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Waterbaby

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http://nypost.com/2017/05/06/why-environmentalists-wont-support-this-native-american-cause/

Opinion

The critical coal plant Trump may not be able to save
By Salena Zito

May 6, 2017 | 11:26am | Updated

A coal plant located thousands of miles from Appalachia could close in two years. And when that happens, it won’t be white, working-class Americans who are devastated — but an entire Native American nation.

At the Navajo Generating Station (NGS) in Arizona, the majority of its workers are members of the Navajo Indian tribe, and the shut-down will crush its people, already faced with a grim economic situation on the reservation.

“Our unemployment rate already exceeds 47 percent,” said Russell Begaye, president of the Navajo Nation. “There will be over 900 direct plant jobs and an additional 2,300 indirect jobs lost with this closure.”

President Trump’s vow to bring back clean coal to America through deregulation won’t save the plant in time. Prior regulations mean the main owner of the plant, Salt River Project, can’t afford to deliver power to their half-million customers at a competitive price. It’s cheaper to produce electricity through other means.

The Navajo Indian Tribe is the largest reservation in the country, with almost 200,000 people living in an area spread across the states of Arizona, New Mexico and Utah. NGS, the largest coal-fired power plant in the western United States, comprises 20 percent of the Navajo Nation Annual General Fund’s revenue. “The money in that fund pays for our social services — education, emergency services and keeping our roads paved and safe,” Begaye says. “Any subtraction in our budget will have critical consequences for my people.”

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Russell BegayeCourtesy of the Navajo Nation Office of the President
The people who live on the reservation are close-knit. They work hard to keep their native traditions alive, to keep their families close — not unlike their white working-class cousins who are equally tight-knit, rooted in their homesteads and have clung to long-held practices for generations.

And, in a Native community where nearly 50 percent of the residents are unemployed, the ones working for the plant are likely the most valued members of the reservation. They are the investors in the community, and without them, the situation rapidly declines, leaving them to make hard decisions:

Do they move away? Do they try to string together three jobs to make up what they lost? Do their homes start to decay as disposable incomes evaporate? All these things are real and will happen — and weigh on President Begaye’s heart.

“My people have suffered so much,” he said. “We cannot lose one more thing.”

The first time Begaye stepped foot off this sovereign land was when he was 18 years old and a bus took him off to college at UCLA. “Wow, what a different world. There was an abundance of everything — cars, people, shops, noise, commerce. It was a sensory overload,” he said.

Do they move away? Do they try to string together three jobs to make up what they lost? Do their homes start to decay as disposable incomes evaporate?

He has lived elsewhere over the years but felt a strong lure to return. “I missed its majestic and extraordinary views, the people and the beauty and remoteness of it.”

Begaye, a former businessman, was elected president exactly two years ago. The job is difficult, he admits, and not just because of potential job losses. According to a January 2017 report issued by the US Department of Justice, violent-crime rates in Indian country are more than 2.5 times the national rate and some reservations face more than 20 times the national rate of violence.

Begaye is still fighting to save the plant, with appeals to both Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke and President Trump. His crusade to keep this industry going for the sake of his tribe has none of the support that environmentalists passionately give the pipeline protests on Native American land in North Dakota.

But he feels his fight is just as important. “We just want a seat at the table to decide where to go to next. An extension, if you will, until we can come up with an economic plan to replace what we may lose,” said Begaye, who has spent the past few weeks pleading his case in Washington.

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Ryan ZinkeAP
“Ultimately, if it must close, we need guaranteed access to the power lines to develop wind and solar power on the reservation.”

Native Americans are just one more group of people in this country who have been left behind or forgotten — except that their story is longer-running, more tragic and more isolating than that of any other ethic group that migrated here over the centuries.

Back in Arizona, the plant glows in the evening sky, serving as a constant reminder that something must be done.

“It is about promise, the promise of my people and the chain of broken promises that we have been given in the past,” Begaye said. “President Trump said he was behind the coal people. I believe he will stand with us.”
 

Alfred E

Member
I would encourage everyone reading this post to look beyond Breitbart and Faux for their news sources in order to form a more balanced opinion. I encourage some of you to learn more about the scientific method.

There is no such thing as "clean coal". Sure, coal helped launch the economy of what was once the greatest country on earth, but that is decades old technology. I don't know if anyone reading this post has been to Lake Powell in the Spring, Summer, Fall or Winter, but is an area blessed with abundant sunshine and strong winds. We should be investing in solar and wind technology. I understand these technologies occasionally hurt wildlife, just as oil spills like Deepwater Horizon and the Exxon Valdez killed wildlife. We need diversity in our energy sources, not just strip mining and oil / natural gas drilling.

I am happy this plant is closing, perhaps it will become safer to eat more of the fish I harvest from the lake. I know my friends who live on Black Mesa will be happy this mining has ended.

I know this post will draw scathing criticism from Dale and Waterbaby. Go ahead, call me an eco-wacko-cooko and a drainer and all sorts of nasty names. I want to make it clear that I love Lake Powell and can't wait to go back when the winds calm. I also understand and support the support the scientific method. I love this country and want the children of our country to have a great future. I believe we need a balance in our energy sources. We need to look beyond fossil fuels, they are not a viable long term energy source.
 

Waterbaby

Moderator
Staff member
I'm sure the people losing their livelihood and those paying much higher energy fees out here in the West appreciate your comments /sarc.
 

Dale

Well-Known Member
Alfred E.

I am going to try to be nice. First of all, Slick Willie Clinton illegally shut down the "cleanest" coal in the world with his illegal Grand Staircase declaration, so we could buy "clean" coal from the Indonesian company that gave $ hundreds of millions to the Clinton Crime Family.

Second, Solar and wind only work when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing. Coal produces power all the time. Solar and wind kill more eagles and condors than any lead bullets or poachers,

Third, None of the water vapor emissions from NGS pollute anything, let alone the water in the lake.

Fourth, The Deepwater Horizon released less oil than what naturally seeps up from the bottom of the gulf every day.

Fifth, The Climate Deal" Obama illegally signed, Shuts down all our clean power plants, but lets China build a dirty coal plant, with absolutely no emission controls, every week for the next 15 years before having to think about it!

The technology does not exist for your dreams. Fossil fuels will fuel the economy for the rest of our lives, unless you have not been born yet!
Proven reserves of oil and gas are now up to 200 years from now!
 

Waterbaby

Moderator
Staff member
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-solar-idUSKBN1801AP

SolarCity performance points to rockier outlook for rooftop solar
Business News | Thu May 4, 2017 | 7:34am EDT

SolarCity reported a drop of nearly 40 percent in solar installations for the first quarter on Wednesday, the latest sign of a reversal in fortunes for the once high-flying residential solar industry.

In an earnings report this week, Tesla said it deployed 150 megawatts of solar generation in the first quarter of 2017 compared to 245 MW in the first quarter of last year.

The company, which announced last week it was curtailing door-to-door sales, said it had prioritized higher-margin projects that generate cash up front rather than trying to sell as many installations as possible. But the dramatic drop in sales for a company that had consistently delivered double-digit growth puts it in line with a broad trend affecting the rooftop-solar industry.

Across the sector, installers report more difficulty finding customers. Subsidies have dwindled or been eliminated in some states, and many of the easiest consumers to sell to - environmentally conscious homeowners with disposable income - have already purchased rooftop systems.

"The trendsetters are kind of gone," Tammy Goad, vice president of corporate development for California-based Valley Energy said at a solar industry conference in San Diego on Tuesday.

Stiff competition in the industry has pushed some companies out of the market, or forced them to scale back. One of the nation's biggest rooftop solar companies, Sungevity, filed for bankruptcy earlier this year.

"Two years ago I thought I was a brilliant marketer. Today, I'm looking for answers," said Kathi McCalligan, director of marketing for San Diego installer Baker Electric, at the conference. The gathering focused on customer acquisition and was put on by the Solar Energy Industries Association.

Rooftop solar, a novelty in many neighborhoods just a few years ago, has enjoyed dramatic growth in recent years, including a 66 percent rise in installations between 2014 and 2015, according to SEIA and research firm GTM Research.

That growth rate slipped to 19 percent last year, and the trend has worsened significantly in 2017. Not only did SolarCity post its worst quarterly solar deployments in nearly two years, residential interconnection requests at California's three investor-owned utilities were down 35 percent in January and February, according to state data. California makes up about half the residential solar market.

Heavy rains in those months were likely to blame for some of that decline, but industry insiders say installations have not recovered as much as expected this spring.

At the same time, consumer complaints about high-pressure sales tactics are on the rise, according to government and private agencies. They say that aggressive door-to-door soliciting and telemarketing have soured some consumers on solar, as have online ads promising "free solar."

Solar-related complaints to the Better Business Bureau, a non-profit that promotes ethical business practices, are up 29 percent nationwide so far this year, Greg Dunn, president of the Hawaii BBB, said during a presentation at the conference. Nearly a quarter of those complaints relate to sales practice issues.

In California, the state's Contractors State License Board said it has received 199 complaints through early April, a level that is on track to exceed the 452 complaints received in 2016.

The rise in complaints has prompted the introduction of solar consumer protection bills in Florida and California, and SEIA earlier this year launched a campaign aimed at protecting solar consumers.

On Wednesday, the Wall Street Journal reported that federal regulators are probing whether large installers Sunrun Inc (RUN.O) and SolarCity have fully disclosed their contract cancellation rates.
 

GregC

Well-Known Member
I would encourage everyone reading this post to look beyond Breitbart and Faux for their news sources in order to form a more balanced opinion. I encourage some of you to learn more about the scientific method.

We should be investing in solar and wind technology.
I support the scientific method as much as anyone, as long as the work is repeatable and peer-reviewed. I DON'T understand why wind and solar were chosen as the alternatives over hydro, geothermal and other sustainable sources like tidal surge, etc. Until we start working on competitively priced, investor funded alternatives, it'll be just that for me, an alternative to real energy.

GregC
 

Goblin

Well-Known Member
The oh so predictable debate style of the Alinskyite Leftist brought to you direct from the Frankfurt School.

Alfred E. begins the debate with:
"I would encourage everyone reading this post to look beyond Breitbart and Faux for their news sources in order to form a more balanced opinion. I encourage some of you to learn more about the scientific method."

Please allow me to translate:
""Anyone disagreeing with me is ill informed having consumed nothing but 'Fake News' that has given us 'unbalanced' opinions, and are of course wildly ignorant of science and any scientific method.""

:eek:WOW, I think we got off kinda easy. At least he thinks we are literate and might be saved with the help of an appropriate reeducation camp. :confused:

The left always obfuscates the issue by attacking the messenger because their message cannot be defended.

If I chose to use that tactic I could easily say. "What else does a watermelon have to say considering that a big spokesman for their nonsense is the 'Not really a scientist, children's TV show host, Bill Nye the Science Lie.' Oh wait he did spend much of a former life working for Boeing. Thank God all of that kerosene jet gas is so clean. o_O:eek::p

Imagine if his first two sentences were not there. Then the substance of his argument can be easily refuted and hence the attempt to shut down any argument before it even begins.
Example 1: Remember how the BP oil well spill destroyed the entire gulf coast.........oh wait, that never happened and the scientists are scratching their heads wondering. "Where did it all go?"
Example 2: The Solar Easy-Bake Ovens & the Wind Bird Slice & Dicers damage wildlife all the Time, not just occasionally. If the wind is blowing or the sun shining, wildlife is being cut up and cooked somewhere.
Example 3: You didn't even mention the biggest negative for Solar & Wind. It is far less cost effective than other fuel sources other than trying to trap hot air given off by super intelligent climate scientists screaming, "The science is settled!, The science is settled!" Why MUST the populace shoulder that cost without clear evidence of an urgent need. I know, I know,,,:mad:"The science is settled!, The science is settled!":mad:

I could go on and on but you know that Alfred E hence your attempt to shut down the debate with your opener, right?
....By the way, is that "What Me Worry?" Alfred E Newman?? You should try it sometime.
FWIW
Goblin
 

birdsnest

Well-Known Member
Alfred E. Newman and RatFink are my heroes!!!!
The oh so predictable debate style of the Alinskyite Leftist brought to you direct from the Frankfurt School.

Alfred E. begins the debate with:
"I would encourage everyone reading this post to look beyond Breitbart and Faux for their news sources in order to form a more balanced opinion. I encourage some of you to learn more about the scientific method."

Please allow me to translate:
""Anyone disagreeing with me is ill informed having consumed nothing but 'Fake News' that has given us 'unbalanced' opinions, and are of course wildly ignorant of science and any scientific method.""

:eek:WOW, I think we got off kinda easy. At least he thinks we are literate and might be saved with the help of an appropriate reeducation camp. :confused:

The left always obfuscates the issue by attacking the messenger because their message cannot be defended.

If I chose to use that tactic I could easily say. "What else does a watermelon have to say considering that a big spokesman for their nonsense is the 'Not really a scientist, children's TV show host, Bill Nye the Science Lie.' Oh wait he did spend much of a former life working for Boeing. Thank God all of that kerosene jet gas is so clean. o_O:eek::p

Imagine if his first two sentences were not there. Then the substance of his argument can be easily refuted and hence the attempt to shut down any argument before it even begins.
Example 1: Remember how the BP oil well spill destroyed the entire gulf coast.........oh wait, that never happened and the scientists are scratching their heads wondering. "Where did it all go?"
Example 2: The Solar Easy-Bake Ovens & the Wind Bird Slice & Dicers damage wildlife all the Time, not just occasionally. If the wind is blowing or the sun shining, wildlife is being cut up and cooked somewhere.
Example 3: You didn't even mention the biggest negative for Solar & Wind. It is far less cost effective than other fuel sources other than trying to trap hot air given off by super intelligent climate scientists screaming, "The science is settled!, The science is settled!" Why MUST the populace shoulder that cost without clear evidence of an urgent need. I know, I know,,,:mad:"The science is settled!, The science is settled!":mad:

I could go on and on but you know that Alfred E hence your attempt to shut down the debate with your opener, right?
....By the way, is that "What Me Worry?" Alfred E Newman?? You should try it sometime.
FWIW
Goblin
 

John P Funk

Well-Known Member
I would encourage everyone reading this post to look beyond Breitbart and Faux for their news sources in order to form a more balanced opinion. I encourage some of you to learn more about the scientific method.

There is no such thing as "clean coal". Sure, coal helped launch the economy of what was once the greatest country on earth, but that is decades old technology. I don't know if anyone reading this post has been to Lake Powell in the Spring, Summer, Fall or Winter, but is an area blessed with abundant sunshine and strong winds. We should be investing in solar and wind technology. I understand these technologies occasionally hurt wildlife, just as oil spills like Deepwater Horizon and the Exxon Valdez killed wildlife. We need diversity in our energy sources, not just strip mining and oil / natural gas drilling.

I am happy this plant is closing, perhaps it will become safer to eat more of the fish I harvest from the lake. I know my friends who live on Black Mesa will be happy this mining has ended.

I know this post will draw scathing criticism from Dale and Waterbaby. Go ahead, call me an eco-wacko-cooko and a drainer and all sorts of nasty names. I want to make it clear that I love Lake Powell and can't wait to go back when the winds calm. I also understand and support the support the scientific method. I love this country and want the children of our country to have a great future. I believe we need a balance in our energy sources. We need to look beyond fossil fuels, they are not a viable long term energy source.
You want balance in our energy systems as long as that balance has 0% coal. Maybe you don't understand balance the way the rest of us do. I own a company that did solar installations from 2010-2013, and prices are coming down and becoming more competitive every year, but the market should be allowed to drive the move to solar/wind not some environmentalists preference/fear mongering. There are very clean sources of coal, that will hopefully be made available again after Zinke does his review on the Monument designations. The biggest problem with the liberal mindset is that they insist on openmindedness from their opponents, but refuse to consider the opposition as having a valid point. We all love the Lake and the southwest, and some of us are lucky enough to be born and live here. Get to know some of the Navajo men and women who are about to lose their jobs, and see if you can't find it in your heart to allow a little "pollution" to exist for the sake of those individuals. Maybe you should try preaching your views in Thailand, or China, as they pollute far more than the dirtiest of our coal plants. I say good day, sir.
 

Gem Morris

Well-Known Member
The "scientific method"? You mean like all those people who claim "the science is settled" regarding global warming?

Here's an example where "the science is settled": GRAVITY.

No one studies gravity anymore. There are no taxpayer funded studies trying to figure out how gravity works or what it is. The science IS settled.

Is that true for the AGW crowd? Of course not. Billions of research dollars are at stake for the AGW crowd. These guys are out clamoring one another trying to get those dollars and conduct "research". But the conflict of interest is HUGE - follow the money.

And most important to my point: the "science" is definitely NOT settled or they wouldn't be studying it.
 
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John P Funk

Well-Known Member
As soon as meteorologists can predict weather more than 2 days out, I might give them some credence as to what may happen in the next 100 years. Currently we don't even understand the forces involved in generating weather(ask any meteorologist), much less whether or not we have any influence on them(positive or negative). The human species has remained at the top of the food chain for one reason in particular: adaptation. I think all of us would agree that fossil fuels will not last forever, but why should we "jump ship" into less efficient technologies(those that require significant subsidies to survive), when there are still lots of high density energy deposits readily available and technologies/infrastructure already in place to utilize them(coal/natural gas/etc). Alfred E. there's a new President in the USA who cares about the lives of American(including Navajo) workers. None of us want to go back to the days of Love Canal, etc., but a nations economy is primarily based on the utilization of its natural resources, which is why the USA has become the powerhouse in the world economy that it is. I hear they've got a new President in France who agrees with your way of thinking, might I suggest a long vacation, perhaps permanent, so you can reap the benefits of 60% income taxes and all that it entails.
 

Markus

Member
"Once the greatest country on earth" ? Still the greatest country on earth and becoming greater on a daily basis!
 

Lake Bum

Well-Known Member
I am happy this plant is closing, perhaps it will become safer to eat more of the fish I harvest from the lake. I know my friends who live on Black Mesa will be happy this mining has ended.
Coal Poisoning in fish? Find me ONE person, anywhere, any study, from any credible source that can back up that claim! Bwhahahahahahahahahahaha! You can't :cool:
 

rjmronster

Active Member
Alfred E, kudos to you for you stance. But discussing AGW on this site is akin to discussing abstinence at a porn convention. Though there is no merit to abstinence, this slightly vulgar comparison a.) offends no race, no nationality, or religion, and b.) on this web site, it's a non-starter, since any attempt explaining science will be vilified. Gee, how appropriate that one very representative member suggest you go on a permanent vacation to France. How does this not violate the Posting Guidelines ? But that's for another time. I'll work backwards through this thread since this site is such:
1.) Coal slurry is nasty stuff. Coal companies say it contains only rocks, coal, and mud. What they don't tell you it contains concentrated amounts of sulfur, arsenic, mercury, nickel, selenium, cadmium, beryllium. And fish don't like this stuff.
2.) Contrary to your nationalistic instincts, the US ranks in no 'good' category as being one of the greatest countries on Earth. You should check out Iceland. It's a cool place.
3.) Gravity science is an on-going process. Off the cuff, I know of Gravity Probe-B, Grace, Grace-FO. All of which are way too complex to explain here.
4.) The follow the money argument is getting old. Oil companies organized a climate change denial campaign to disseminate public disinformation since the 1980s.
  1. Egan, Timothy (5 November 2015). "Exxon Mobil and the G.O.P.: Fossil Fools". New York Times. Retrieved 9 November 2015.
  2. ^ Jump up to: a b Goldenberg, Suzanne (8 July 2015). "Exxon knew of climate change in 1981, email says – but it funded deniers for 27 more years". The Guardian. Retrieved 9 November 2015.
  3. Jump up ^ ‘Shell knew’: oil giant's 1991 film warned of climate change danger, The Guardian

5.) To the representative of this site who has a problem with Bill Nye, why are you not banned ? Your arguments are hostile and have no merit other than sadistic humor.
6.) Obama's energy department has loaned $34 billion to a slew of clean-green startups, and defaulted on only $780 million - a loss rate of just 2.3 percent. Even the program that funded Solyndra, (it's loan actually approved by Bush BTW and not Obama) is recovering

I'll stop there since I'm sure everyone else has too. AGW is real. CO2 and CH4 are IR gases. This has been known for centuries. It's why we have a comfortable 57 F, and with out it, we would be 60 F cooler. 95% of AGW is happening in the oceans, which are rising 3.4 mm/year, with 1/3 of that due to thermal expansion. This is all agreed upon by 97% of the scientific community. If you like CO2 so much, may I suggest Venus. It's in the perfect Goldilocks zone. W/o CO2 the temperature for us humans would be perfect. With CO2, not so much.

And I feel really bad for the employees of the plant that may loose their jobs.
 
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birdsnest

Well-Known Member
You object to the suggestion to move France then you suggest someone go to Venus. I was reading all this with interest and then, as usual, the name calling. This is one thread I will not waste my time with. And by the way when you refer folks to News Organizations you probably should also note that that news source is decidedly leaning left.
 

Goblin

Well-Known Member
There is no point in debating a leftist but...

RJM... begins with the standard attempt to discredit any dissent. "But discussing AGW on this site is akin to discussing abstinence at a porn convention... b.) on this web site, it's a non-starter, since any attempt explaining science will be vilified."

He then quotes a good many purported facts with two of his three paltry references coming from the Guardian which has always been Far Left Fake News much like the NYT which is his other reference.

Going through all of the attempted points would be fruitless and far too time consuming as to offset any benefit gained. Suffice it to say these few gems are indicative of the veracity and repute of RJM's entire post.
  1. "You should check out Iceland. It's a cool place." The very tiny (population <350,000) very closed society of Iceland exporting mostly cod but a good 19% aluminum. I guess RJM... is not appalled at the aluminum strip mines and caustic smelters polluting that fine location? Whilst the economy is highly volatile, tourism is booming due to people not wanting to visit the immigrant terrorist decline of the central region. Iceland o_ODid not see that coming.:eek:
  2. "AGW is real... This is all agreed upon by 97% of the scientific community. " This 97% number has been thoroughly debunked many many times. Many of the 97% are actually climate skeptics that disagree with the Church for Global Warming. Basically the number was derived from the questions:
    • Do you think the climate is warming....well, DUH! of course especially since the Maunder Minimum aka Little Ice Age.
    • Do you think man is contributing to this warming.....well DUH! AGAIN Urban Heat Islands anyone?
Notice that: "Is an increase in temperature a calamity or not?" as well as "Is there any significant effect we could have on it if it were to be calamitous?" were not in the 97% consensus.

The 97% of scientists meme is pure bunk and I believe that all but the most ignorant among the Climate Alarmists know this. The facts have never got in the way of the narrative. Remember that to the leftist the ISSUE is never the ISSUE. The narrative is always the real issue.

Bill Nye has absolutely no credibility on Climate Change. He is a shill plain and simple adhering faithfully to the 'shut down debate' meme by advocating the criminal prosecution of any Climate Change Skeptic. Yes that's right folks, Bill Nye wants you to go to jail if you disagree with him and his Church of Climate Change. Did not the REAL Flat Earthers of old demand the same?

Finally I feel as though I have been thoroughly validated by RJM..
I humbly join the ranks of others that the Leftist Snowflake PC crowd want banned. I doubt they would ever ever win a debate if banning opposing viewpoints were not in their tool belt. Just look at the state of our Schools and colleges today.

Thanks again RMJ

FWIW,
Goblin
 

Goblin

Well-Known Member
RJM said, "W/o CO2 the temperature for us humans would be perfect. With CO2, not so much.",

Not to bring up that pesky science thing but literally wouldn't this mean our very dead bodies would be at a very comfortable temperature??

Just sayin'
Goblin
 
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