The Colorado River is drying up because of climate change, putting millions at risk of 'severe water shortages' - CNN

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Like I said nobody wants to give up their quality of life. It is to bad Covid 19 couldn’t just sweep Washington and clear the whole place out. I am all about going green as I believe in Pascal’s wager on climate change. We are honestly trashing our planet and have no respect for mother nature. In the same breath folks have to feed their families. Another, inconvenient fact is in the 1950’s we broke the Malthusian trap or at least prolonged it, soley due petroleum based nitrates. If it were not for oil we would have alot more war and famine or maybe not because there would not be as many of us. After following this discussion, I am defiantly sitting on the fence as both side have valid points. Kudo’s by the way at keeping this topic civil. Washington could learn something from this site in my opinion.
 
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Havalina said:
Like I said nobody wants to give up their quality of life. It is to bad Covid 19 couldn’t just sweep Washington and clear the whole place out. I am all about going green as I believe in Pascal’s wager on climate change. We are honestly trashing our planet and have no respect for mother nature. In the same breath folks have to feed their families. Another, inconvenient fact is in the 1950’s we broke the Malthusian trap or at least prolonged it, soley due petroleum based nitrates. If it were not for oil we would have alot more war and famine or maybe not because there would not be as many of us. After following this discussion, I am defiantly sitting on the fence as both side have valid points. Kudo’s by the way at keeping this topic civil. Washington could learn something from this site in my opinion.
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I agree, a good discussion, and appreciate the thoughtful input from many perspectives... As to the concept of sitting on the fence, I see that too, and I'll admit I've done a lot of fence sitting in my time, to the point I once wrote a cautionary poem about it, from a lizard's perspective...

On the Fence

I’m there doing pushups in the late October sun
If I could I'd sit there all day long
But a lizard’s gotta move sometime just seems like common sense
Till then I'm just sitting on the fence

Red tail’s callin’ someone from somewhere way up above
I wonder what he's thinking—is it love?
That screech is getting closer; those talons look immense
I see it all from sitting on the fence

Oh…then I’m high above the ground
And there’s hardly any sound
I just hope he doesn't drop me it's a thousand feet or more
Now I see the problem, should have learned this all before

Is it beautiful or cruel or just a world misunderstood
When you finally see it like you should
That hawk won’t give a thought to having lunch at my expense
That’s the price for sitting on the fence
 
…. This is interesting to see all of the various opinions and takes on things. I guess I am going to have to live 100 more years to see the outcome..... That could be tough if the planet ends in 12 years...

I hope you’re right but I’m worried about the arctic ice cover or the rapid widespread desertification or even the Amazon reaching a tipping point that creates major changes in weather patterns quickly— on the scale of decades not centuries
 
It is good that all are keeping it civil. It is good to hear and see varying thoughts and opinions and respect them.
Artic Ice has actually been increasing at an increased rate for a few years from studies done in 2018. Some predict we are returning to a cyclic period of cooling, which if it in fact does it will keep increasing until it doesn't again. Real Climate change can only be truly tracked over periods of Hundreds of years. Decades long snapshots trends or differences don't show or prove anything. In truth there is really no such thing as normal climate it is a swing of up and downs year to year, decade to decade, century to century. It is man that "averages" it out and calls it normal. Normal is always varying climate. Only a very long time frame time will tell the true outcome of climate change. My bet is it keeps changing in both directions. In the mean time we should do all we can to protect our Air, Water and land, because there is an ever growing population which has been mentioned has a real and unquestionable impact on the planet.
 
arctic ice has been increasing?

not according to the people who measure it:

"Arctic sea ice extent for February 2020 was 14.68 million square kilometers (5.67 million square miles), the thirteenth lowest in the satellite record."

 
Mildog said:
It is good that all are keeping it civil. It is good to hear and see varying thoughts and opinions and respect them.
Artic Ice has actually been increasing at an increased rate for a few years from studies done in 2018. Some predict we are returning to a cyclic period of cooling, which if it in fact does it will keep increasing until it doesn't again. Real Climate change can only be truly tracked over periods of Hundreds of years. Decades long snapshots trends or differences don't show or prove anything. In truth there is really no such thing as normal climate it is a swing of up and downs year to year, decade to decade, century to century. It is man that "averages" it out and calls it normal. Normal is always varying climate. Only a very long time frame time will tell the true outcome of climate change. My bet is it keeps changing in both directions. In the mean time we should do all we can to protect our Air, Water and land, because there is an ever growing population which has been mentioned has a real and unquestionable impact on the planet.
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Some record lows would de encouraging
 
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DANISH RESEARCH SAYS SEA ICE THICKNESS HAS DOUBLED IN LAST 10 years.. The site you linked to has a chart that chart shows sea ice for March 2018 higher than all of the last 10 years except 2011-12 Satellite ice tracking has only been done for about 40 years it is has been up and down, yes the trend over 40 years has been down, but the last 10 have been moving up. Antarctic is is growing as well. 40 years in earth time is not much of a sample and a small trend, next 40 might be the cooling period predicted and it may trend up. Who knows only time will tell.
 
when i go look at their website it brings up this page:

Ocean and Ice Services | Danmarks Meteorologiske Institut

Danmarks Meteorologiske Instituts hjemmeside for marin information
ocean.dmi.dk ocean.dmi.dk

note, this is not cherry picking any one particular day or recent years, this is the whole record that they show the history.

look at the actual range and the recent years, the extent of the ice in area coverage. notice that the area is below the average by a significant amount and even worse in the summer months? do you understand what that means? methinks you don't... all that bare water is picking up heat that it used to reflect which is a reinforcing negative feedback. sea-ice thickness doesn't do you much good if it is a much smaller area than it was before.

to be more positive check this video out from last year:


i'm hoping for a few rounds similar to that this next week...
 
I hope we get storms like we did last year. Right now there is another storm building up off the coast that if it tracks like they predict, it should help the snowpack.
As far as the other the info, I get it. My point is if you dig enough you can find info that contradicts other sources. The biggest takeaway is predictions are being made with info and data form a very short period of time less than 50 years, that is a nano second in earth time. Satellite tracking only began in late 70's early 80's . Many Scientists just prior to this were predicting a coming ice age. Newspapers, magazines and papers chronicled this. They were wrong. Several studies of past climate history ( Ice core samples, tree rings and historical observation since man began keeping records show warming and cold cycles that run in about 200 year periods.. There will be swings both colder and warmer during that time frame if history repeats.
 
Mildog said:
I hope we get storms like we did last year. Right now there is another storm building up off the coast that if it tracks like they predict, it should help the snowpack.
As far as the other the info, I get it. My point is if you dig enough you can find info that contradicts other sources. The biggest takeaway is predictions are being made with info and data form a very short period of time less than 50 years, that is a nano second in earth time. Satellite tracking only began in late 70's early 80's . Many Scientists just prior to this were predicting a coming ice age. Newspapers, magazines and papers chronicled this. They were wrong. Several studies of past climate history ( Ice core samples, tree rings and historical observation since man began keeping records show warming and cold cycles that run in about 200 year periods.. There will be swings both colder and warmer during that time frame if history repeats.
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i don't know about specific cycles in tree ring or glacier samples of air bubbles. as of yet i don't see any evidence for those that i consider credible. i do not find critiques of science to be a problem as that is a part of what science is about. i do however have a problem with people who have no real idea of what science is who are given control of the budgets and resources and actively go about destroying the system because "they don't like it or understand it and it makes them feel uncomfortable."

when i was a kid i remember some people saying we could never eat all the fish in the oceans to make any difference. i was a bit skeptical. i'm also skeptical of many claims made today yet there are some issues of common sense that apply.
 
flowerbug said:
i don't know about specific cycles in tree ring or glacier samples of air bubbles. as of yet i don't see any evidence for those that i consider credible. i do not find critiques of science to be a problem as that is a part of what science is about. i do however have a problem with people who have no real idea of what science is who are given control of the budgets and resources and actively go about destroying the system because "they don't like it or understand it and it makes them feel uncomfortable."

when i was a kid i remember some people saying we could never eat all the fish in the oceans to make any difference. i was a bit skeptical. i'm also skeptical of many claims made today yet there are some issues of common sense that apply.
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The studies are out there by "credible" scientists, the tree ring study is older before all of the climate change talk. Ice core samples studies that correlate with the tree ring study are more recent. So in this case two disparate scientific methods tracked the same cycles and were consistent with each other. The info was taken an overlapped with rise and falls of cultures from back in time. The warmer periods coincided with more prosperous times and colder with less so. The dark ages aligned with a cooling period. One questions that came up after studying ice core samples was is there more co2 when it is warmer or is it co2 that makes it warm??? There is some scientific disagreement on that questions. Chicken or egg question. I will see if I can find that info and link to it..
 
Here is some information on Ice core studies and global climate cycles/changes Interesting info/science from these studies. Temperature swings up and down 11,660 years ago. and even before...…. No SUV's or man caused CO2 then. By the way ice bubbles has proven to be very unreliable, these studies use several different techniques
Tree ring study is controversial, it is not considered a true scientific discipline, so many discredit it unless it supports what they want then they use it.
There are tree ring studies that "support' the above data of climate cycles change. One was done using petrified trees dating further back than living trees could track..

So much is left to interpretation and often misinterpreted to fit the narrative...


Here is a link Evidence of Global Warming & The End of the Last Ice Age



In the 1990’s, scientists began the immense task of drilling into the summit of the Greenland ice sheet. The meticulous extraction of pure ice cores were used to measure the history of earth’s climate change. The samples were extracted two miles deep, far away from ice flow that distorted previous data.


These pure ice core readings revealed a remarkable image of prehistoric climate change. Of interest, was the temperature change as from the last ice age, known as the Younger Dryas period.


When data from 11, 600 years ago was compared to present day readings it revealed regular patterns of temperature oscillation. The natural variation is an increase and decrease of 2-4 degrees Celsius every few decades.


One big feature the study revealed was that in the past 250,000 years, the last 11,600 have been the longest prolonged period of relatively stable climate.

Here is some more interesting information, We are always told that it is a consensus of Scientists none disagree. Here is a letter from 500 from around the world about man caused Climate change.
Here is where it can be found
clintel.nl

Prominent scientists warn UN Secretary-General Guterres - Stichting Climate Intelligence Clintel

A group of 500 prominent scientists and professionals, led by the CLINTEL co-founder Guus Berkhout, has sent a registered letter to the Secretary-General of the UN, António Guterres. They warn the Secretary-General that “urrent climate policies pointlessly and grievously undermine the economic...
clintel.nl clintel.nl



From: Professor Guus Berkhout guus.berkhout@clintel.org

23 September 2019
Sr. António Guterres, Secretary-General, United Nations, United Nations Headquarters, New York, NY 10017, United States of America. Ms. Patricia Espinosa Cantellano, Executive Secretary, United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, UNFCCC Secretariat, UN Campus, Platz der Vereinten Nationen 1, 53113 Bonn, Germany

Your Excellencies,
There is no climate emergency A global network of more than 500 knowledgeable and experienced scientists and professionals in climate and related fields have the honor to address to Your Excellencies the attached European Climate Declaration, for which the signatories to this letter are the national ambassadors. The general-circulation models of climate on which international policy is at present founded are unfit for their purpose. Therefore, it is cruel as well as imprudent to advocate the squandering of trillions of dollars on the basis of results from such immature models. Current climate policies pointlessly and grievously undermine the economic system, putting lives at risk in countries denied access to affordable, reliable electrical energy. We urge you to follow a climate policy based on sound science, realistic economics and genuine concern for those harmed by costly but unnecessary attempts at mitigation





oxygen-isotopes-greenland.jpg

Evidence of climate change over the past 10,000 years.

As the graph oscillates backward and forwards, we can see a pattern of cooling and warming through time. As the line moves to the right, temperatures are warming, and as it moves left, temperatures are cooling These fluctuations represent changes of a few degrees Celsius and which are part of earth’s natural cycle. As the line approaches the bottom of the graph, there is a slight cooling trend. The following graph then reveals the period is abruptly interrupted by the end of the Younger Dryas period.
 
i'm sure i can find millions of scientists who would say otherwise. cherry picking scientific stuff published on the web isn't proof of much of anything other than you can use google.
 
flowerbug said:
i'm sure i can find millions of scientists who would say otherwise. cherry picking scientific stuff published on the web isn't proof of much of anything other than you can use google.
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Like I've said for years. If you don't like the weather forecast, find the channel that gives you the forecast you like. But there is no guarantee either forecast will be correct.

If scientist are aiming to prove something, they will in one form or another. The forecasts need to stop and focus should be placed on how to correct what is wrong. We need to quit patching the bad tire but just rather put something reliable on the rim.

But, like I said before. The US is actually going in the right direction and getting cleaner by the day. It needs to be a global effort to be effective though.
 
flowerbug said:
i'm sure i can find millions of scientists who would say otherwise. cherry picking scientific stuff published on the web isn't proof of much of anything other than you can use google.
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I think that's the point. Either side can find reputable scientists who agree with their point of view. It's not yet settled science.
flowerbug said:
i do not find critiques of science to be a problem as that is a part of what science is about.
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Bingo! I think this is what Mildog has provided to us - other scientist's theories that differ from your view or what you believe is credible. Throwing sand towards Mildog for stating a varying opinion to yours isn't constructive.

I've found this thread very interesting so far, with many opinions and statements that I agree and disagree with. Just as I would expect it to be! I hope it continues, constructively.
 
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So, a thought just passed thru my pea brain.

We have scientists trying to prove what they believe is right with climate change. Wouldn't it be more productive for the scientists to work together to accomplish a practical solution instead of trying to prove they are right and the others are wrong?

Forget the 10 year forecast, that is meaningless garbage. All them smart people should learn where the priority is.

By the way, how mush diesel do you think the scientists go thru to research all these remote areas? Just sayin'.
 
I can’t even count the number of times I’ve seen this dead horse get beaten on different chat rooms and forums over the last 20 years. There’s been no real debate on the science or solutions for at least a decade. Even the fossil fuel industry knew the facts in the late 60s.....

See page six from 1965 Mining Congress Journal

Mining-Congress-Journal-August-1965

Capture.PNG
 
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