Hydro-Storage Project Proposed For Lake Powell On Navajo Nation | KNAU Arizona

flowerbug

Active Member
before adding solar panels for electricity make sure to plan and install solar hot water with that so that you can get an even quicker return on the investment.
 

Gem Morris

Well-Known Member
I'd argue that wind mills are not a good thing. There is a 50 year return on investment and they only last 25 years. The single largest installation of wind mills in the USA sits idle in CA because of old age/disrepair.

And they kill so many birds including eagles. When the oil industry kills an eagle there is H to pay.

The article I read talks about how scientists are just now starting to realize how many bats they kill too.
 

CHRIS MCBETH

Well-Known Member
We have a 45 panel array on our roof that generates 21 Megawatts of energy a year. Our house is 2500 square feet with 4 bedrooms, den, living, and dining room.

We have 2 large A/C units, several computers, two fridges, and charge an electric car (Volt) every week night (18kWh).

Our APS electric bill is $13/mo all year round.

So the idea of using solar/wind powered pumps to move water up during the day then release the water to generate electricity at night is very intriguing.

The other very positive benefit of a system like that would be they can generate electricity without releasing water out of Lake Powell...

I say go for it.
 

flowerbug

Active Member
i would guess that you are using older data @Gem Morris ... the price of wind has gone down so much that a lot of the costs can be recovered, and while they may have to replace a blade or do repairs along the way they're still very useful machines. also the bird strike issue is not as dire as has often been reported. just depends upon where you look for information... for our particular location solar really isn't that great as compared to the sunny southwest, but if we were to just go for a lower cost option of installing a small system with no batteries and primarily set up to run only when the sun is out enough to generate hot water that would pay for itself rather quickly. if you avoid the overhead of battery storage you can do very well with a modest investment.

still it is much better to deal with the lower hanging fruit before installing solar for a lot of people. like improving their insulation, caulking/sealing cracks, better windows/blinds, heating/ac efficiency, low flow shower heads and better hot water tank insulation or going to on-demand hot water if it will work for you, and not driving a gas guzzler if you don't really need to. those kinds of things pay off much sooner than solar around here (we can go weeks without bright sunny weather).

as the prices of solar continue to fall the payoffs improve - eventually it will be worth it even in our location.
 
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Bill Sampson

Well-Known Member
When I was in the solar industry in 2018 the best solar panels were 24 percent efficient. They may be better now.
 
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flowerbug

Active Member
Bug, where is your general area location? Sq
mid-Michigan. we get cloudy weather for weeks/months at a time. last month i think we saw the sun maybe 4 times the whole month and not for full sunny days, i mean seeing any kind of blue sky or sunshadow... we call the sun "The UFO" this time of the year as a joke. i'm sure the solar panels work somewhat even when it is cloudy, but for solar hot water it would be a bummer to have to rely upon it completely. the well water here is very cold.

wind works for this area well enough that there are several wind farms now and perhaps more planned or trying to get put in. a lot of very flat farmland.
 
Wow, this is going to be big. The NGS was 2,250 MegaWatts (MW) and this is going to be 2,210 MW. Falling water over Glen Canyon down 710 feet has a rated capacity of 1,300 MW. For this proposed project, since falling water is 90 % efficient in terms of conversion to electricity, 18,600 acre feet of water falling 1300 feet is 81 trillion joules of energy, which is precisely equivalent to the first atomic bomb denoted in New Mexico. Coincidence I'm sure. But yes, 81 trillion joules of energy released over 10.2 hours is a 2,210 MW power plant. They got their math right. However to get 2,210 MW of power in the first place to lift the water, you are going to need some land. Quick search gives the largest solar farm in the world as Longyangxia Solar Park in China which is 850 MW and occupies 9.6 square miles. Scaling that up to 2,210 MW yields 25 square miles. I read however that this Chinese solar farm is 'spread out'. The Kamuthi India solar plant appears to be more dense and is rated merely at 648 MW and occupies 'only' 3.86 square miles. Upscaling that to the proposed 2,210 MW yields 13 square miles.... Did I mention big ?
 
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John P Funk

Well-Known Member
before adding solar panels for electricity make sure to plan and install solar hot water with that so that you can get an even quicker return on the investment.
Exactly correct, ROI on Solar Hot water is about three years compared to 15 years for photovoltaics. They both qualify for 30% Federal income tax credit. The Hot water panels are about 5 times as efficient at converting solar energy to heat energy(hot water). If you have radiant floors it's really a great idea.
 

Kevin G

Member
Bullfrog/North Lake is the area that needs a large solar array, instead of trying to make power from expensive diesel generators. Lack of power has been a limiting factor to the development of the North Lake area for 50+ years.
 

flowerbug

Active Member
Exactly correct, ROI on Solar Hot water is about three years compared to 15 years for photovoltaics. They both qualify for 30% Federal income tax credit. The Hot water panels are about 5 times as efficient at converting solar energy to heat energy(hot water). If you have radiant floors it's really a great idea.
this is something that should be mentioned far more than it is IMO... as anyone doing a solar panel installing kind of business i think it would be a very logical addition/expansion.
 
>>>>>Bullfrog/North Lake is the area that needs a large solar array, instead of trying to make power from expensive diesel generators. Lack of power has been a limiting factor to the development of the North Lake area for 50+ years.



I've always thought that the Bureau of Reclamation should run an underwater power cable from the dam to Bullfrog/Halls and Hite.

While they are at it, why not splice off the main cable into the side canyons and have power hook ups along the way for shore power for houseboats like they do for rv's in rv parks. Shore power in Iceberg!!! I'm kidding of course.............
 

Red Rock Paradise

Well-Known Member
Bullfrog/North Lake is the area that needs a large solar array, instead of trying to make power from expensive diesel generators. Lack of power has been a limiting factor to the development of the North Lake area for 50+ years.
It would an expensive project to bring solar into Bullfrog and NPS and Aramark already have a hard time just upgrading the marinas or marking hazards in the main channel.

If we assumed a demand of 4 MWs you would need no less than a storage capacity of 78 MWh, 13 hours of storage and 50% extra capacity. At 400 dollars per KWh of storage it would cost 31.2 million dollars just for the storage not counting transportation cost, solar panel costs or installation costs. So for probably 50 million you could have a solar system that could meet current demands and maybe a little room for some expansion. NPS could run approximately 175 miles of high tension transmission lines (285,000 per mile) for the cost of solar project but would still have to pay for electricity costs betweem 8 to 12 cents per KWh which could be offset since they wouldnt have to employe someone to maintain the solar panels and the equipment operating them.
 

DQDanny

Active Member
there is a small wind project that is being build in wyoming by denver's Phil Anchutz. All of the permitting has been done in the past 10 years, & I believe roads & construction are taking place now. All the power will go to california. Anchutz calculates his current cost for a KW is 4.3 cents, & anticipates a KW will drop to 2.3cents. He ultimately states his project will produce 12Billion Kwh per year. This comes from close to 1000 turbines. I believe the transmission lines are being built or have been mostly built. It will be the countries largest by far when it is completed in 2025. It will be built & all the heavy lifting(permitting) has been done already. Wyoming has some of the best wind in the world.
 

Gem Morris

Well-Known Member
there is a small wind project that is being build in wyoming by denver's Phil Anchutz. All of the permitting has been done in the past 10 years, & I believe roads & construction are taking place now. All the power will go to california. Anchutz calculates his current cost for a KW is 4.3 cents, & anticipates a KW will drop to 2.3cents. He ultimately states his project will produce 12Billion Kwh per year. This comes from close to 1000 turbines. I believe the transmission lines are being built or have been mostly built. It will be the countries largest by far when it is completed in 2025. It will be built & all the heavy lifting(permitting) has been done already. Wyoming has some of the best wind in the world.
See how California exports all their unpleasantries to us so they can claim they are environmentally friendly? ALL these birds will be killed outside of California. The terrible eyesore that mars the view for this project will not be in California. ALL of the power generated (100%) of the IPP (massive coal fired generator near Delta) is exported to California. How much US tax payers dollars are being to subsidized this project?

DQDanny I don't have any bones to pick with you. I just don't like windfarms.
 

mnoland30

Member
That is the beauty of capitalism. If it doesn't make economic sense, the company won't do it. Admittedly, the gov't. puts its thumb on the scale when it subsidises solar energy. Hydro-storage is the best way we have at this point to store electricity. Storing electricity is important because solar and wind don't happen all of the time. How nice to have an extra source of power when the brownouts are happening in Phoenix during the hottest day on record? A road creates minimal environmental impact, if done correctly. It is like the stack of bills mentioned earlier. There is so much land, and so many canyons, and so little land access at Powell, that another access point would be nice.
 
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