Dangling Rope Damage Intentional???

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Jan Hertzen said:
This is the Lake Powell Issues page, so OK, I'm following up on my October 12 rant about Dangling Rope. I had stated that I thought the NPS needed to assign an activist administrator who loves Lake Powell and everything about it. Believe it or not, years ago Lake Powell was treasured by the NPS, and they ran it that way. For instance, they had a nice mid-lake facility in Forbidding Canyon, but it was a throughway to Rainbow Bridge that made the water too choppy and rough, so they made a wise decision and moved it to Dangling Rope Canyon. It was a modern, self contained facility with comfortable living quarters. Every year the dock was staffed with students from around the world who lived there and had the experience of a lifetime. The general store had the necessities (beer, sunscreen, fishing poles, T-shirts, food, soft ice cream, block and cubed ice), and if you had a mechanical issue you didn't have to worry, there was a boat repair facility right there on the dock. They even had big dual engine outboards that could come and get you in an emergency if you were stuck somewhere. And you could use the public telephone to make free calls anywhere in the world!

So when members of this forum say that Lake Powell activists are all haters, I beg to differ. There was a day when Lake Powell was a favored child of the NPS, and not the step child it is today.

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The days you are referring to were all prior to Aramark's purchase of Del Webb. The concessionaire winds up being the face of the park for many NPS units and Aramark has lost interest in Lake Powell. Now we have to wait for the dance between NPS and Aramark to finish so that either NPS pays a bunch to fix up facilities or Aramark is bought out of their interests. Until that happens, Antelope Point appears to be the only place where a concessionaire is interested in investing in real improvements to the experience.
 
nzaugg said:
The days you are referring to were all prior to Aramark's purchase of Del Webb. The concessionaire winds up being the face of the park for many NPS units and Aramark has lost interest in Lake Powell. Now we have to wait for the dance between NPS and Aramark to finish so that either NPS pays a bunch to fix up facilities or Aramark is bought out of their interests. Until that happens, Antelope Point appears to be the only place where a concessionaire is interested in investing in real improvements to the experience.
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Hasn’t Aramark been operating without a contract with the NPS? It seems that several years ago when the contract was up for renewal Aramark claimed that (for a reason I forget) visitor days were way down and it would be unfair for Aramark to have to negotiate during that time period. As far as I know the contract has been on an “as is” basis ever since. Maybe going on 6 or 7 years now.
 
Gem Morris said:
Hasn’t Aramark been operating without a contract with the NPS? It seems that several years ago when the contract was up for renewal Aramark claimed that (for a reason I forget) visitor days were way down and it would be unfair for Aramark to have to negotiate during that time period. As far as I know the contract has been on an “as is” basis ever since. Maybe going on 6 or 7 years now.
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They have been operating for almost 2 decades without a long-term operating agreement. The contract renews on an annual basis. The reason it doesn't get renegotiated is because of the significant infrastructure owned by Aramark at both the north and south end that would require a payment from NPS to Aramark to extricate them from. Meanwhile, NPS underfunds infrastructure improvements on the portions they own, so Aramark doesn't want to invest more in what they own either. They are in a dysfunctional marriage and it's probably time for a divorce so one entity can go to the gym, start losing weight, make new friends, etc.
 
nzaugg said:
They have been operating for almost 2 decades without a long-term operating agreement. The contract renews on an annual basis. The reason it doesn't get renegotiated is because of the significant infrastructure owned by Aramark at both the north and south end that would require a payment from NPS to Aramark to extricate them from. Meanwhile, NPS underfunds infrastructure improvements on the portions they own, so Aramark doesn't want to invest more in what they own either. They are in a dysfunctional marriage and it's probably time for a divorce so one entity can go to the gym, start losing weight, make new friends, etc.
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That is correct. The initial contract ran from 1/1/1988-12/31/2007 (20 years). The contract has since been renewed on an annual basis every year since (except I think the first renewal was 2 or 3 years). The first renewal for 2008 stated ‘The National Park Service (NPS) is continuing the process of developing prospectuses for new concession contracts…’. Every renewal since has stated essentially the same thing but a new prospectus has never been issued in 16+ years. In my discussions with NPS over the last several months, it sounds like it will be at least another 5 years before a new prospectus is sent out. This would extend the total concessionaire contract length with Aramark to over 40 years which I believe is unacceptable and an embarrassment on the part of NPS.

The infrastructure @nzaugg refers to above is what is defined as Possessory Interests (what Aramark owns that NPS has to purchase before they can release them from their contract). As of 3/9/18 the Possessory interests were the following:
  • Hite: $1.5 million
  • Halls Crossing: $10 million
  • Bullfrog: $18.5 Million
  • Wahwheap and Dangling Rope: $63.5 Million

The total Possessory Interests at the time were $93.5 Million. These numbers remained static through 2019 and then were set to increase by the Consumer Price Index from January 1, 2020 to the pay off date and no additional possessory interests would be allowed to be incurred under this specific contractual agreement. I spoke with Kurt Rausch a couple months ago and he wouldn't give me any idea of what the payoff or time frame looked like. But, another source provided me information that NPS has paid out somewhere in the neighborhood of $65 million to Aramark towards these PI's over the last several years (I haven't been able to confirm this number). If true, the remaining buyout would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $30 million.
 
ashtonc77 said:
I just had a long conversation with someone very familiar with operations on the South End of the lake who gave me quite a bit of information regarding what's going on with the lake including the alleged intentional decommissioning of Dangling Rope.

Billy Shott who was the superintendent on the Lake at the time was trying to do all he could to collapse recreation on the lake. It is believed that the damage to Dangling Rope was planned and intentional. If you look through Google Earth History images, you can see there has always been tire breaks in front of and protecting Dangling Rope (There are many images with tire breaks installed between 2004 up through April 2020, there was never a time that tire breaks were not there). From what I was told, the infrastructure at Dangling Rope was not strong enough to survive storms without the tire breaks in place. The tire breaks were reportedly and intentionally removed at some point so that Dangling Rope would be hit directly by a storm and be damaged to force and ensure the closure and removal of the marina. You can see in the webcam image below which was taken shortly after the storm destroyed dangling rope that there are no tire breaks in place to protect the marina. If true, this is devastating to hear.

To pour even more salt on the wound, Antelope Point Marina has the equipment and expertise to provide a mid lake fuel station for Lake Powell (they are currently the only 'floating marina' on the lake and it is very apparent they know what they are doing. They could have a mid lake fuel station up in a matter of days. Antelope Point has approached Glenn Canyon requesting permission to provide a mid lake fuel service and has been turned away because it is out of the Scope of Antelope Points Concessionaire contract. Glenn Canyon does not seem to have any urgency about getting the marina restored.

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We have been saying this exactly thing all along!!! I know they removed the tires barrier a week or two prior to the "storm" that they claimed damaged the marina because we was there and saw them taking the tires away. We thought it was weird , why they moving the tires, we said to ourselves??? Then a week or two later there was a storm that came through then they shut dangling rope down forever.
 
Jackalope said:
So I think what you are seeing is that it was further out, past what the camera is showing... You don't see the no wake buoys either.
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I was able to locate a 360 Degree image from Lake Powell Virtual Reality Project taken on 4/4/2021 (just over 1 month before the storm). It's not the best image in the world but is taken in the entrance to Dangling Rope Marina where you can see the whole channel about 100 yards or so off from the fuel dock. There are clearly no breakwaters in sight but you can see the wakeless speed buoys. I'm unsure how to download a 360 degree image so here's the Facebook link to the image (you may need to follow the Lake Powell Virtual Reality Project Page to view it). Log into Facebook

Based on the research I've done, I'm confident that there were no breakwaters in place at the time of the storm. The question I still have not been able to answer is WHY? I sent an email to NPS on 10/17 seeking some information on this. On 10/18 I was told they were working on a response but after sending them a follow up email this week, I still have not received a response.
 
Welp.... After waiting over 6 weeks for a response from NPS as to why the breakwater was removed, I was provided the following response:

'I have been instructed to refer you to the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) website for your request.'

Who was the instructor? Heidie Grigg. Does she know why the breakwater was removed? Absolutely! Is NPS trying to hide it from the public? I will let you decide but I 100% believe so.

I submitted a FOIA request today and they are only 127-313 day out so we will see what they come back with then :oops:.
 
ashtonc77 said:
Welp.... After waiting over 6 weeks for a response from NPS as to why the breakwater was removed, I was provided the following response:

'I have been instructed to refer you to the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) website for your request.'

Who was the instructor? Heidie Grigg. Does she know why the breakwater was removed? Absolutely! Is NPS trying to hide it from the public? I will let you decide but I 100% believe so.

I submitted a FOIA request today and they are only 127-313 day out so we will see what they come back with then :oops:.
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From past experience you are likely to receive the response “we were unable to locate correspondence regarding the requested inquiry.”
 
ashtonc77 said:
That is correct. The initial contract ran from 1/1/1988-12/31/2007 (20 years). The contract has since been renewed on an annual basis every year since (except I think the first renewal was 2 or 3 years). The first renewal for 2008 stated ‘The National Park Service (NPS) is continuing the process of developing prospectuses for new concession contracts…’. Every renewal since has stated essentially the same thing but a new prospectus has never been issued in 16+ years. In my discussions with NPS over the last several months, it sounds like it will be at least another 5 years before a new prospectus is sent out. This would extend the total concessionaire contract length with Aramark to over 40 years which I believe is unacceptable and an embarrassment on the part of NPS.

The infrastructure @nzaugg refers to above is what is defined as Possessory Interests (what Aramark owns that NPS has to purchase before they can release them from their contract). As of 3/9/18 the Possessory interests were the following:
  • Hite: $1.5 million
  • Halls Crossing: $10 million
  • Bullfrog: $18.5 Million
  • Wahwheap and Dangling Rope: $63.5 Million

The total Possessory Interests at the time were $93.5 Million. These numbers remained static through 2019 and then were set to increase by the Consumer Price Index from January 1, 2020 to the pay off date and no additional possessory interests would be allowed to be incurred under this specific contractual agreement. I spoke with Kurt Rausch a couple months ago and he wouldn't give me any idea of what the payoff or time frame looked like. But, another source provided me information that NPS has paid out somewhere in the neighborhood of $65 million to Aramark towards these PI's over the last several years (I haven't been able to confirm this number). If true, the remaining buyout would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $30 million.
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93.5M - government spends like drunk sailors these days. Spend the damn money, get out of the contract and move it to a better provider. Aramark is awful. Government will get a third of it back when it taxes Aramark on the sale of the assets - so there we just reduced the price to $62.3M.
 
ashtonc77 said:
Based on the research I've done, I'm confident that there were no breakwaters in place at the time of the storm. The question I still have not been able to answer is WHY?
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That, ashtonic77, IS the question!! (y)

In 40 years of visiting DR, there was ALWAYS a breakwater there.

Removal was either a real boneheaded mistake, or it was intentional.

My gut says intentional......cuz had it been a mistake, it certainly could have been re-positioned....

The plot thickens.....

:cool:
 
So, remove the breakwater in hopes that it will damage DR <- 1
or
remove the breakwater and cut the braded steel wire holding the docks so that you can blame it on the breakwater being gone <-2

Why not just cut the wire holding the dock?
 
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