Advice for Reopening?

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kokanee64

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Someday down the road Lake Powell will open again. The decision will be made at all levels of government but based on the close down decision it appears local and state governments will have loud voices. Some of the loud voices will understand the needs of campers and fishers better than others (I'd trust Wayne more, for example) and I'm sure NP officials will have plenty to say about what policies will make their lives easier -- but they may not understand users' needs so well. I expect local officials to have a mixed perspective. I suspect that for some we are nothing but a costly nuisance and a drain on resources. For example, my county, Gunnison CO, is being sued by the Texas AG because we have stopped just short of putting up barricades on the highway and posting signs telling our second home owners, "TEXAS TRASH TURN BACK OR WE WILL JAIL AND FINE YOU."

I'm not interested in your political philosophy, personal freedom statements or what the law is or ought to be. Those are important but belong in a different post. What I'm interested in is ideas we can share with decision makers about policies and practices that will make the eventual startup of Powell happen more smoothly, more fairly and more safely. I suspect the answers may be different for Page and Bullfrog. Does anyone know more about this than us? Does anyone care more about this than us? This is a chance for us to have a voice at the table. How do we make restarting campgrounds and bathrooms, retail establishments, ramps and all the rest a success from the users' points of view?
 
We are resposible for ourselves and our actions. It has already been shown that laws do not make everybody do the right thing. Open the lake and let the citizens take care of each other. We are not stupid and we can help those who are. This can be as easy or hard as the governments make it. We don't need more laws or different laws. This place has been fine for a long time. Common sense rules. Open
 
Lots of hand sanitizer/wipes by all entrance doors. Negative test results (maybe one of those 5 minute self administered tests and a no touch thermometer at the gate) and no symptoms in the last 2 weeks for any visitor. Maybe a drive thru type window and speaker at the gate like a drive thru bank window. I would think common areas would be out of the question but gloves, mask and wipes required on docks, in stores and fueling stations maintaining social spacing (maybe shut down one side of the gas pumps) with limited number of customers at any one time. Plastic sneeze shields at the cash registers. Outside phone and electric entrance door to areas like offices and clinics. Self contained camping units and porta potties on boats as well. Maybe primitive camping spaced out at least 100' in family groups of less than 10. Boats stored locally and 30 day dry times verified before leaving the local area. It sounds really crazy but this maybe necessary after watching them disinfect a store the other day due to a suspected contact with the virus. I see in South Korea them walking down the street spraying down everything in hazmat suits and it seem to work for them as they had very few cases for a very short time. Maybe do that at night around docks, launch ramps and common areas?
 
Number of yearly deaths worldwide from smoking-related causes = 7 million
Number of yearly deaths worldwide from alcohol-related causes = 2.8 million

Where's the public health outcry to ban tobacco and booze? Then there's this one: 650,000 yearly deaths worldwide from the flu. Don't you think we're blowing things a bit out of proportion with COVID-19? Is it a disease to be taken seriously? Absolutely. But do we ruin the country by shutting everything down for months on end?

Folks, we live in a world literally teeming with viruses, microbes, bacteria and critters that are all out to get us. Do we shut down everything and go run and hide in our houses every time there's a new bug out there? (And I got news for you - your house is loaded with microscopic critters too.) Open the dang lake and the rest of the country and let us get back to our lives again. We can all be adults and take the proper precautions without the government's help, thank you very much.
 
The main reason the numbers are low is because we are making and doing very radical changes to the way we live. You do remember just a few weeks ago in America alone the best guess if we did nothing it was 2.2 million dead right? Tobacco and booze probably account for quite a few being in that high risk category and is yet another example of the poor job public health administration has been doing due to having their budget cut to almost nothing and lack of insurance programs pushing preventative medicine for those even have health insurance. Right now 1 in 4 poor working people die with this disease when they catch it. They make up almost half the population in this country. Consider yourself lucky if you can self isolate.
 
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There is something much bigger and nefarious going on.
Don’t believe everything you think, I hope.
 
Its very basic- we are, at some time, going to have to reopen in every way.
We are going to have to accept that there will be some risk for some folks with COVID-19 forever. Just like all other viruses.
The risk in pure numbers is actually very low- divide it out yourself - its 0.000174% chance of getting CV-19
That's a 1 out of 10,000 chance and out of that small number only a very small fraction of THAT will die from it
We will have an uptick when we reopen
Right now its all driven by social media and news stations constantly blaring dramatic news reports for ratings
Public perception is what drives the panic
Public perception is what drives the politicians
Having no treatment or prophylaxis is what scares people even with the threat low.
Until a good number of people can relax without fear, opening will be a purely political call.
Once the people see a light at the end of the tunnel THEY will demand opening
In the mean time, sensible, staged openings of recreational places outdoors would be a good thing.
The fact remains that we will NEVER be rid of CV-19 It will always be around in some amount. We will have to accept it for what it is. Hopefully a treatment will come around also.
 
Someday down the road Lake Powell will open again. The decision will be made at all levels of government but based on the close down decision it appears local and state governments will have loud voices. Some of the loud voices will understand the needs of campers and fishers better than others (I'd trust Wayne more, for example) and I'm sure NP officials will have plenty to say about what policies will make their lives easier -- but they may not understand users' needs so well. I expect local officials to have a mixed perspective. I suspect that for some we are nothing but a costly nuisance and a drain on resources. For example, my county, Gunnison CO, is being sued by the Texas AG because we have stopped just short of putting up barricades on the highway and posting signs telling our second home owners, "TEXAS TRASH TURN BACK OR WE WILL JAIL AND FINE YOU."

I'm not interested in your political philosophy, personal freedom statements or what the law is or ought to be. Those are important but belong in a different post. What I'm interested in is ideas we can share with decision makers about policies and practices that will make the eventual startup of Powell happen more smoothly, more fairly and more safely. I suspect the answers may be different for Page and Bullfrog. Does anyone know more about this than us? Does anyone care more about this than us? This is a chance for us to have a voice at the table. How do we make restarting campgrounds and bathrooms, retail establishments, ramps and all the rest a success from the users' points of view?
I spent four days prior to the closing of the boat ramp and had great fishing and only a few folks around the boat ramp and fish cleaning station all week. This makes no sense whatsoever to me to close the ramp and allow the areas to remain open that are a real danger to the public. Yesterday out of complete boredom I decided to go golfing and could not believe what was going on. Fit’s stop was to pay my fee to golf approx 20-25 folks standing around inside the clubhouse having coffee and visiting about being able to go golfing when I return the golf cart it was the same thing. can someone explain to me way they can close a remote boat ramp and continue to allow this kind of stuff to remain open. The town of PAGE has been devastated with the closing of the power plant and the shutdown of tourism the power to be need to get there head out of the sand and wake up!!
 
There is something much bigger and nefarious going on.
Don’t believe everything you think, I hope.
I've been wrong many times but this does have a twisted feeling about it. I avoid conspiracy theories cause they are usually wrong. You know the government probably is not smart enough to get away with many things that are sneaky but that has never stopped them from trying. American political history is loaded with examples. Politicians could buy a vote at the polls for a sandwich before the ballot laws. I would have hated being a black man or a chinaman or an Indian. All men are created equal. Yeah right. And on and on. Once we lose a right or are put under more control we will never get it back. But what do we do? Maybe after this bug is gone a nice trip to D.C. would be in order. About 3 million of us.
 
First off, if Bart starting charging five bucks for every new member (or second anonymous profile) during the COVID crisis he could raise a lot of money for the cause lol. My answer to your question is to form a group of people with valid names and addresses. Give it a name like “voters for Lake Powell”. When you get a thousand (yes that is arbitrary) or more validated start shopping around for someone who will listen to you as a rep for your group. If you have a reasonable voice maybe you will be asked to attend meetings where you and your group have a recognized voice and can make suggestions that will be heeded. Or not. I am sure that there are pockets of folks already looking at reconstitution, but my fear is that the feds are a huge machine and very slow to act/react, keeping the lake closed longer than what is needed.
I want to be at the lake right now as much, if not more than you, but the “Following the rules cuz you should” obviously doesn’t work very well or we wouldn’t have mussels right now. Not everyone does the right thing.

TR
 
While I agree with most of the sentiment and points expressed above, if you attend the meeting where the restarting of LP is being planned and you talk like this you will get the bureaucrat’s Stink Eye, people will move their chairs away from you and you will be treated like the crazy uncle who always shows up for Thanksgiving dinner half demented, half drunk or both.

Think about the decision the park superintendent is facing. Grab a piece of paper and draw a 4 cell box with two rows and two columns. Now we need to put labels above the columns and to the left of the rows. On the left, corresponding to the two rows, we’ll put the superintendent’s actions. To the left of the top row, let’s put “Late open with a slow, incremental startup.” To the left of the bottom row let’s put “Open everything next week.” Now let’s deal with the two columns by labeling them with what we’ll call States of Nature. For the left column we’ll put “CV-19 fades away” and for the right column we’ll put “CV-19 roars back.” Now let’s look at what happens in each cell, and in particular is the superintendent still employed June 15? If CV-19 fades quickly and the Supt does a late, gradual reopen, he or she still has a job June 15. If CV-19 fades quickly and Supt threw the switch, he still has his job June 15. If CV-19 roars back and the Supt chose a late, slow reopen, he still has his job. If CV-19 roars back and the Supt flipped the reopen switch he is toast and probably unemployable. What would you do if you were the Superintendent? Practice saying phrases like “precautionary principal” and “abundance of caution.” Play out the same game for the Governor, the Secretary of the Interior, the County Commissioner or any bureaucrat or elected leader. Lives and policy makers’ jobs are on the line. We are probably going to have a late, gradual startup unless we can identify strategies to make the restart less risky for us and for the decision makers.

For example, would it help to limit daily Bullfrog entrances to 25 rigs? Should we limit entrance at Bullfrog to Utah citizens? Should we only allow entrance for those who will immediately launch and camp away from Bullfrog. If we can get a bunch of quick test kits should we test everyone at the Bullfrog entrance? Would you open all three campground loops to distribute people more. How often are you going to clean campground bathrooms, every two weeks or so like the norm a couple of years back?

To imagine what strategies might be needed it helps to consider the worst case scenario, what might happen if you just throw a switch. We have lots of retired and unemployed people who have a serious case of cabin fever. The kids are out of school. The bass are really BIG. Will it look like a swarm of locusts? What happens if all the campsites immediately fill up and the primitive camping area starts looking like Woodstock? Make it personal if you want. What am I supposed to do if I’m in a bathroom stall in a Bullfrog campground and 3 guys come in sneezing and coughing? I’m not suggesting that any readers here would do that but does anyone believe there aren’t people like that who sometimes come to Bullfrog? We all like to think were are super careful but we know it is more like playing golf in Page. So, would it help, for example, to put in a bunch of port-a-potties so I can do my business in isolation? How about using volunteers to help monitor places where crowds are likely to form and remind us about being vigilant? Should everyone be required to wear a mask in certain places?

What are some strategies for reopening LP that will enhance safety and in turn make it easier for the decision makers to open a few weeks earlier? What activities are most likely to get us infected? Ideas would help. Crazy uncles don’t help. Don’t be a crazy uncle.
 
While I agree with most of the sentiment and points expressed above, if you attend the meeting where the restarting of LP is being planned and you talk like this you will get the bureaucrat’s Stink Eye, people will move their chairs away from you and you will be treated like the crazy uncle who always shows up for Thanksgiving dinner half demented, half drunk or both.

Think about the decision the park superintendent is facing. Grab a piece of paper and draw a 4 cell box with two rows and two columns. Now we need to put labels above the columns and to the left of the rows. On the left, corresponding to the two rows, we’ll put the superintendent’s actions. To the left of the top row, let’s put “Late open with a slow, incremental startup.” To the left of the bottom row let’s put “Open everything next week.” Now let’s deal with the two columns by labeling them with what we’ll call States of Nature. For the left column we’ll put “CV-19 fades away” and for the right column we’ll put “CV-19 roars back.” Now let’s look at what happens in each cell, and in particular is the superintendent still employed June 15? If CV-19 fades quickly and the Supt does a late, gradual reopen, he or she still has a job June 15. If CV-19 fades quickly and Supt threw the switch, he still has his job June 15. If CV-19 roars back and the Supt chose a late, slow reopen, he still has his job. If CV-19 roars back and the Supt flipped the reopen switch he is toast and probably unemployable. What would you do if you were the Superintendent? Practice saying phrases like “precautionary principal” and “abundance of caution.” Play out the same game for the Governor, the Secretary of the Interior, the County Commissioner or any bureaucrat or elected leader. Lives and policy makers’ jobs are on the line. We are probably going to have a late, gradual startup unless we can identify strategies to make the restart less risky for us and for the decision makers.

For example, would it help to limit daily Bullfrog entrances to 25 rigs? Should we limit entrance at Bullfrog to Utah citizens? Should we only allow entrance for those who will immediately launch and camp away from Bullfrog. If we can get a bunch of quick test kits should we test everyone at the Bullfrog entrance? Would you open all three campground loops to distribute people more. How often are you going to clean campground bathrooms, every two weeks or so like the norm a couple of years back?

To imagine what strategies might be needed it helps to consider the worst case scenario, what might happen if you just throw a switch. We have lots of retired and unemployed people who have a serious case of cabin fever. The kids are out of school. The bass are really BIG. Will it look like a swarm of locusts? What happens if all the campsites immediately fill up and the primitive camping area starts looking like Woodstock? Make it personal if you want. What am I supposed to do if I’m in a bathroom stall in a Bullfrog campground and 3 guys come in sneezing and coughing? I’m not suggesting that any readers here would do that but does anyone believe there aren’t people like that who sometimes come to Bullfrog? We all like to think were are super careful but we know it is more like playing golf in Page. So, would it help, for example, to put in a bunch of port-a-potties so I can do my business in isolation? How about using volunteers to help monitor places where crowds are likely to form and remind us about being vigilant? Should everyone be required to wear a mask in certain places?

What are some strategies for reopening LP that will enhance safety and in turn make it easier for the decision makers to open a few weeks earlier? What activities are most likely to get us infected? Ideas would help. Crazy uncles don’t help. Don’t be a crazy uncle.
Are you a government worker?
 
First off, if Bart starting charging five bucks for every new member (or second anonymous profile) during the COVID crisis he could raise a lot of money for the cause lol. My answer to your question is to form a group of people with valid names and addresses. Give it a name like “voters for Lake Powell”. When you get a thousand (yes that is arbitrary) or more validated start shopping around for someone who will listen to you as a rep for your group. If you have a reasonable voice maybe you will be asked to attend meetings where you and your group have a recognized voice and can make suggestions that will be heeded. Or not. I am sure that there are pockets of folks already looking at reconstitution, but my fear is that the feds are a huge machine and very slow to act/react, keeping the lake closed longer than what is needed.
I want to be at the lake right now as much, if not more than you, but the “Following the rules cuz you should” obviously doesn’t work very well or we wouldn’t have mussels right now. Not everyone does the right thing.

TR
Bravo!
 
I get it. The exact reasons you state are the same reasons dealing with entrenched politicians is so frustrating. And BTW we probably should submit our opinions in triplicate.
 
Lots of hand sanitizer/wipes by all entrance doors. Negative test results (maybe one of those 5 minute self administered tests and a no touch thermometer at the gate) and no symptoms in the last 2 weeks for any visitor. Maybe a drive thru type window and speaker at the gate like a drive thru bank window. I would think common areas would be out of the question but gloves, mask and wipes required on docks, in stores and fueling stations maintaining social spacing (maybe shut down one side of the gas pumps) with limited number of customers at any one time. Plastic sneeze shields at the cash registers. Outside phone and electric entrance door to areas like offices and clinics. Self contained camping units and porta potties on boats as well. Maybe primitive camping spaced out at least 100' in family groups of less than 10. Boats stored locally and 30 day dry times verified before leaving the local area. It sounds really crazy but this maybe necessary after watching them disinfect a store the other day due to a suspected contact with the virus. I see in South Korea them walking down the street spraying down everything in hazmat suits and it seem to work for them as they had very few cases for a very short time. Maybe do that at night around docks, launch ramps and common areas?
You gotta be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!:unsure:
 
What is usually the reason we have seen for closing the parks? Usually it has been public safety concerns. Now Utah has the transport of mussels as well. They have already had a close call with one of their employees and the virus. I imagine possibly why some of the provisions were put in HB255 were to eliminate some of the risks and number of employees. Imagine being a first responder as most of the NPS law enforcement officers are getting the virus and taking out the entire staff at Glen Canyon Rec Area for a two week isolation period minimum due to a positive test contact that they made before anyone knew anyone was sick. Instant closure. Most NPS superintendents are former law enforcement officers and can see this happening when they know many visitors coming to Lake Powell come from highly infected states. Convincing them to open the park will be a difficult job. No one will want to take the risk of having to close it a second time without documenting and doing everything possible to have prevented it.
 
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