Kurt Douglas
Active Member
Are they still allowing 2 stroke motors on the Lake. I have heard rumor that they either have or are thinking about banning these from Powell. Any help would be appreciated.
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2 stroke motor
- Thread starter Kurt Douglas
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Edward Gerdemann
Well-Known Member
Actually I've seen quite a few big block 4-strokes on high performance bass boats in recent years - both Yamahas and Mercury Verados. Last year at the Phoenix boat show nearly half of all high performance bass boats there had 4-strokes on them. I plan to attend this year's event next week. I'll be curious to see what they're putting on those boats this year.
A vast majority of the 2-strokes I see on Lake Powell are newer DFI models which are very clean burning. I see a few old carburated models on older boats, but those are getting fewer every year. The new engines, both DFI 2-strokes and 4-strokes, are simply better than the old engines as well as a lot cleaner. I suspect, however, that the days of the 2-stroke, even the DFI models, are numbered as the outboard manufacturers work out the kinks in big block 4-stroke engines as well as they have in the smaller models. Of the manufacturers, only Evinrude is committed entirely to 2-stroke engines. Honda has been all 4-strokes for a long time, and Suzuki has gone entirely to 4-strokes as I understand. Yamaha is clearly committed to 4-stroke technology as it quit trying to make a 2-stroke engine that can meet AAA CARB standards. Mercury is doing both and its 2-stroke Optimax line continues to sell well, but as time goes on I believe even it will move entirely to 4-stroke engines. They are definitely the wave of the future.
Ed Gerdemann
Edward Gerdemann
Well-Known Member
The only real innovation Evinrude has done over the past 15 or so years has been the injection system. I just don't see how Evinrude can remain sustainable in the future. Mercury and Yamaha own a bunch of boat companies and have power contracts with others which makes them dominate in fresh water power. Honda and Suzuki are big into the off-shore market. It seems Evinrude's primary focus is on the high-performance bass boat industry, and those options are relatively few due to Mercury and Yamaha's dominance. All I know is I only see a handful of newer Evinrude engines on Lake Powell every year, but I see tons of Mercs and Yamahas as well as a few Hondas.
The big advantages 2-strokes enjoyed in the past have been weight and acceleration/top-end performance, but both Yamaha and Mercury 4-strokes are getting lighter and are performing better. Yamaha's big block 4-strokes are now comparable in weight to most DFI 2-strokes. Mercury's 4-strokes are still heavier, but they have gotten a bit lighter as well. The last real 2-stroke holdout in fresh water is the high performance bass boat market, but we're now even seeing 4-strokes making major inroads there.
Ed Gerdemann
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
I admittedly don't follow the outboard market that close. But from what I have seen, Honda is probably the furthest back in innovation (not saying it is a bad motor, but I think it is pretty much the same over the last 10 + years).The only real innovation Evinrude has done over the past 15 or so years has been the injection system. I just don't see how Evinrude can remain sustainable in the future. Mercury and Yamaha own a bunch of boat companies and have power contracts with others which makes them dominate in fresh water power. Honda and Suzuki are big into the off-shore market. It seems Evinrude's primary focus is on the high-performance bass boat industry, and those options are relatively few due to Mercury and Yamaha's dominance. All I know is I only see a handful of newer Evinrude engines on Lake Powell every year, but I see tons of Mercs and Yamahas as well as a few Hondas.
The big advantages 2-strokes enjoyed in the past have been weight and acceleration/top-end performance, but both Yamaha and Mercury 4-strokes are getting lighter and are performing better. Yamaha's big block 4-strokes are now comparable in weight to most DFI 2-strokes. Mercury's 4-strokes are still heavier, but they have gotten a bit lighter as well. The last real 2-stroke holdout in fresh water is the high performance bass boat market, but we're now even seeing 4-strokes making major inroads there.
Ed Gerdemann
I had the privilege of spending a long weekend last year at Port Aransas, TX. In the bay, Evinruide power was dominate. Honestly, I'd say that 70% of the boats there seemed to have that.
In the big engines, I would look closely at a Verado. But in what I would call the mid-sized market (say 30 HP - 150 HP), I think the e-Tec has a lot to offer. The comparisons that I have seen all show that they are superior in fuel economy, noise, weight, and speed.
That said, it will likely be a long time before I buy another outboard boat.
Meatwagon
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
I think the fate of the 2 stroke has yet to be determined, as for evinrude when I passed the rental fleet at Antilope point it looked to me that every house boat had e-tec drive systems. I personally hope they stay in business for a very long time. I plan on keeping my new e-tec for as long as I am able to continue to be a boater. 20 yrs ? ?????
mtnpull
Well-Known Member
My new rig has the verado 300 and that is one sweet motor in every aspect. I only have about 8 hours on it so far, but it is far superior to the 150 merc I came from. Comparing 2 stroke to 4 stroke, it really comes down to power vs weight ratio and the 2 strokes always win in this department. I run 25-30 snowmobiles each year in my rental fleet and BRP runs much of the same Etec technology in both the marine and snowmobiles. On a snowmobile an extra 100-150 lbs in motor weight with a 4 stroke is extreme in keeping a snowmobile from having good lift and floatation. IMO an extra 150 lbs on boat isn't as great of a factor. So deciding between 2 or 4 stroke isn't as much of a factor. The other major factor is if the manufacturer can keep compliance with EPA regs. BRP and the etecs run extremely clean....close to what most 4 strokes do. With how much they have invested in their snowmobiles and marine, I don't see them moving away from the 2 stroke technology any time soon. Many of the other manufacturers choose to simplfy and rather develop newer cleaner technology for 2 strokes, just move into 4 strokes that are easier to meet the EPA regs. Yamaha succesfully all but lost all thier mountain snowmobile market share by making this move a few years back and those riding mountain snowmobiles wouldn't take the weight penalty of the 4 strokes and now you almost never see a yammy on the mountain. With all that said, I always want to throw my leg over a 2 stroke snowmobile, but on a boat where the weight difference doesn't make sucha a dramatic effect I will take a 4 stroke and not have pay for and add oil. However, changing oil on a 2 stroke is pretty simple. Just add oil everytime you add gas!
Ryan
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
@mtnpull , I was all ready to refute your arguments regarding weight, and I did a little research, and it looks like there is actually less of a weight difference than I thought.
Mercury only lists its "lowest weight" while Evinrude lists specifics, but the short story is there is only a 20 pound difference in 60 HP models (which is pretty significant % wise). The 200 HP models are close in weight as well.
I'm very surprised, as the mass of a 60 HP e-tec is much smaller than my Mercury.
So maybe weight isn't a reason to choose one over the other.
I still think that e-tec has advantages on maintenance (virtually none) and performance (the tests I have seen reveal petter hole shot and WOT speed) vs the 4-strokes. I would also argue that 150 pounds is a significant difference in a boat, but since weight difference is all but neutral, I can't even argue about that.
Either way, there are some great options out there for outboards. And I am still very jealous of your new boat.
Mercury only lists its "lowest weight" while Evinrude lists specifics, but the short story is there is only a 20 pound difference in 60 HP models (which is pretty significant % wise). The 200 HP models are close in weight as well.
I'm very surprised, as the mass of a 60 HP e-tec is much smaller than my Mercury.
So maybe weight isn't a reason to choose one over the other.
I still think that e-tec has advantages on maintenance (virtually none) and performance (the tests I have seen reveal petter hole shot and WOT speed) vs the 4-strokes. I would also argue that 150 pounds is a significant difference in a boat, but since weight difference is all but neutral, I can't even argue about that.
Either way, there are some great options out there for outboards. And I am still very jealous of your new boat.
mtnpull
Well-Known Member
You are right, weight does make a difference on boat, but my point was that on a snowmobile that weighs 500ish lbs that you literally are throwing about back and forth in aggressive mountain riding 100lbs is a big deal. On a boat that weighs a few thousand lbs and you aren't physically manhandling it that same 100lbs wouldn't make as much of an impact. But I also agree with you that either option is a great option out there. I have been a huge BRP fan for years and run way more BRP stuff both summer and winter on my rental fleet due to the great reliabilty. But even with that said. I lost 4 Etec motors this winter! I think my good run and law of averages caught up with me in one season! Glad for warranty, but took a hit in the thousands in lost revenue from not having the equipment available to rent while being repaired.
Dorado
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
All the new motors are so much better than the old, smoky, unreliable 2 strokes. I am still running a carbureted, oil injected 3 cylinder Mercury 90 from 2003. This design is all over central and south America, low tech and bulletproof, easy fix if something does break. But they run rough when cold, smoke at idle and are much dirtier and less fuel efficient than the new engines. I look at the new models online...I just cant justify the 10k to replace mine with a new one!
mtnpull
Well-Known Member
There is something to be said about the old 2 stroke technology with carbs. A huge portion of my snowmobile rental fleet are carbed 600's. Why? Because those motors have been around forever and are bulletproof and super reliable. I literally put 7000+ miles on them and they still test with good compression. The EFI technology is great, but with dozens of sensors to make them run correctly if one sensor gets a glitch the machine goes into limp mode and you can't do anything until a tech plugs it in and finds the problem or clears the code. Pros of the old 2 stroke tech is super reliable, simple, easy to fix / resolve if there is a issue (check fuel, air or spark). Cons - they guzzle fuel and oil! If you have a carbed system (or fuel injection for that matter) Do everything possible to run non ethanol fuel in them. This is tough because at the lake they seem to only have ethanol
. But I would really try to store over the winter with non ethanol and fuel stabilizer.....otherwise you may be doing some carb cleaning in the spring to get them to run again.
Dorado
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
I always treat my fuel with Seafoam, and run the fuel out of the system EVERY time I pull the boat out of the water. My boat sits a lot (long winters, mostly spring and fall use) and I have never needed to do anything to motor other than change the lower unit oil and change out the fuel filter.
My snowmobiles are another story! I have a fan cooled 550 and an RMK 800, both of which are used only to get out ice fishing, and don't get a ton of use. I treat the fuel and try to run only non-ethanol fuel. They seem to need constant tweaking to keep running smoothly compared to the outboard. Another issue is they can be hard to start when they are warm. If they sit for like 5 minutes after being run, I can have a heck of a time getting them getting them going again. Any thoughts?
My snowmobiles are another story! I have a fan cooled 550 and an RMK 800, both of which are used only to get out ice fishing, and don't get a ton of use. I treat the fuel and try to run only non-ethanol fuel. They seem to need constant tweaking to keep running smoothly compared to the outboard. Another issue is they can be hard to start when they are warm. If they sit for like 5 minutes after being run, I can have a heck of a time getting them getting them going again. Any thoughts?
mtnpull
Well-Known Member
If that is a polaris 550 fan I would sale it ASAP....it is a ticking time bomb. They are notorious for engine failure. I had 20 of them in 2007 and I lost about 50% of the motors. The BRP 550 is much better engine that is much less prone to failure. On the 800 rmk, I hope it is not a dragon. They also have been prone to engine failure (makes them dificult to sell), I am guessing where it is carbed it is older and should be one of their reliable 800 engines. As far as the hard starts go, enough heat is building up under the hood that the fuel line is vaporizing (vaporlock). Simply hold the throttle halfway to fully open while pull starting and it should start much quicker as this pushes more air and fuel into the motor instead of just fumes. Just do not choke it as it will flood it and make it even more difficult to start. Just a natural quirk of a carbed 2 stroke snowmobile. Also I would add an extra 8 oz of oil to the first tank of fuel each season to help lube up the motor on its first use of the year.
Dorado
Keeper of San Juan Secrets
Both are Polaris, the 800 is not a dragon (it is carbed, a liberty I believe). The 550 is from 2002 I believe. Both have around 2000 miles, and are from years that have had some issues, but are not real troublesome. From what I have read, the motors that had problems tended to have them early, and if they were still running well after a few seasons they are most likely OK. Both were relatively cheap, so if they blow up, Oh well!
Thanks for the info!
Thanks for the info!
Edward Gerdemann
Well-Known Member
The big problem with E-Techs is finding someone who can work on one. Nearly everyone can work on a Mercury, but if you live in a small, rural community you might have to drive a couple hundred miles or more to find an E-Tech mechanic. It's not a problem here in Phoenix where we have several Evinrude dealers, but I'm not sure there are any E-Tech mechanics in Prescott or Flagstaff. At last year's boat show here in Phoenix there was not one E-Tech mounted on a boat in the whole showroom. I saw three of them sitting on stands. It will be interesting to see if there are any on boats at next week's show.
Ed Gerdemann
Ed Gerdemann
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